best DIY/professsional labor split

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:00 pm

i'm new to the paint and body side of things, and could use some input from those more experienced in this area. i know the answer to this question depends on a lot of factors including your own personal preferences, but i'd like to get an idea of what the 'sane' choices are.

basically i want to know how to best split the labor between me and a real body shop for the best results. i am committed to starting it myself - installing new fenders, etc. but i am also committed to having a professional shoot the color. the question is where to switch...

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present situation:
'69 california bug. factory sun roof (aah.

) usual touches of body rust. don't see any perforations, but there could be something. couple of minor dents and dings. one more serious, though not huge, dent in the front quarterpanel.

final configuration:
new bonnet, new front apron (came with car). creative car craft fiberglass fenders all around. new removable rear apron. zap the chrome body trim. color change.

resources:
currently no welder, no spray gun. willing to put in hard work and time myself. willing to spend ~$4-6k. big fan of quality. usual mechanical skills, comfort with working material for the aesthetic (i sculpt and oil paint).

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the plan so far:

me - swap fenders
me - install removable rear apron
me - remove non-paintables
me - fill trim holes with POR-15 brand RestoGRIP Body Filler
?? - sand to bare metal (i'd prefer to do this to really see what's there)
?? - etching primer
?? - good quality body filler (no bondo) / sand
?? - high build primer / sand
?? - primer sealer
them - base coat
them - clear coat
?? - color sand
?? - buff

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so, who do you think should do the '??' items. i was think of doing the first 3 myself and leaving the last 4 to them. will i get better results for only slightly more $ if i only do the first 1 or 2 and leave the last 5 or 6 to them? any input welcome...

thanks in advance,
gcorrado

57Drag · Post by **57Drag** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 6:56 pm

Thats what i used to do for a living.It is 99%preperation,anyone can shoot a great paint job.The prep work makes the biggest difference.whatever you choose make sure you opt for the best quality paint,primer and make sure they use a quality sealer.i use ppg products cause they can withstand the sun a little better but Imron and other paints are good too.I can get a gallon of color reducer and hardener for 50 bucks or 250 bucks.Depends on how fast you want in to fade out...Donald..

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:00 pm

I would recomend that you do everything yourself. I ask these same questions on vw speed and drag racing about engine building. The question is do you trust anyone more than yourself? The answer is no.

Ideally you would have someone that knows about bodywork that can take 10-20 minutes a week and tell you what to do/what you are doing wrong... You should be able to get all the information you need here though.

About having a pro paint it. If your going to cut and buff it yourself I see no need to have a pro paint it. As long as the base does not run you can do anything with the clear. The clear can have runs all over, be ripply all over, but if you cut and buff it there will be no problem. Only advantage of a pro doing it is they might have a low dust paint booth. If you properly prep your garage you should not have a problem with dust though.

If you end up doing it yourself I would check my thread on here about the best finish. If anyone ever replies. I have heard about people doing that and the finish is just insane. I have never seen it myself before. That is why I am asking the question.

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:02 pm

"me - fill trim holes with POR-15 brand RestoGRIP Body Filler"

Im not exactly sure how you plan on doing this, but unless you do it properly it will fall out over time. Unless por15 restogrip is a super product.

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:03 pm

"?? - sand to bare metal (i'd prefer to do this to really see what's there)"

You can do this no problem. I would suggest pulling dents right below this though.

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:09 pm

"?? - etching primer
?? - good quality body filler (no bondo) / sand "

I have a little problem with this. Keep in mind I am no pro. Just a kid that thinks he knows everything

I understand that etching primer eats its way into the metal. Then you are going to put on body filler. I have always been tought that when you put on body filler you grind the metal with a rough grinder to give the body filler something to stick to. From the sounds of it you are going to put body filler over the etching primer. Im not exactly sure what is correct. A proffessianal on here should be able to help you.

Figure out the right way of absolutly everything you can do. If done right it will last forever.

Bobnotch · Post by **Bobnotch** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:39 am

He has the right idea, you want the body filler to go on AFTER the primer. If you don't, then it will rust under the filler. I normally use epoxy primer to seal he bare metal, then body filler, then K-36 sandable primer (filler primer to blend the sand scratches) then seal it again in epoxy primer. After I'm happy I'll paint it. The trim holes should be welded closed. I honestly think it can all be done by yourself, but a pro stopping by once in a while to drink some beer with and bounce ideas off would be nice. I've helped a friend of mine out this way on several cars. I'm not exactly a pro, but I've been doing it for 14 years and still learning every day. I hope this helps.

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:05 pm

Ive been doing it for only 5 years and just started legaly drinking. Still I hardly know anything.

Bob, don't you have a problem with putting the filler over the primer because it is so smooth?

What are the advantages of seeling with dp instead of k36 with added dt870?

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:10 pm

Also if you end up doing it yourself I would get a good 220 gas welder. I ended up getting a cheap 110 gas welder. Sure it works great for body work, but if I want to fabricate something that needs to be really strong I have to go to a friends place 8 miles away.

Louis D · Post by **Louis D** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:59 pm

Filler before etching primer.

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:08 pm

arg, now I don't know what to do. One person says etching primer first the other says filler first.

All_talk · Post by **All_talk** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55 am

I?ve been doing armature bodywork for about 16 years now and have always put filler (sometimes even the real cheap stuff) on bare metal only, I still own my first car with my first body / filler work and it hasn?t cracked or fallen out yet (for what ever that may be worth). I know that the current school of thought is that you can use filler over epoxy primer but I?m not sure about other types of primer.

As to the original question of how much of the work to do yourself? Like 57Drag said, its all in the prep, if you can rig up a reasonably clean place to spray and can get a hold of some decent equipment I say do it all yourself. With quality materials and equipment and some basic technique (buy a decent book), even a beginner can do great work.

Some basic pointers on bodywork:

Dents are easy, rust is the real enemy.

Take the time to move the metal, less filler is always better, in most cases if the filler is thicker than 1/8? in any area the metal still needs some moving or replacement.

Apply the filler in thin layers, sand, then another thin layer. Thick layers of fill don?t cure well and are prone to crack later on.

2K primer (catalyzed two part) is like magic, in many cases it removes the need for filler.

When leveling panels, close your eyes and use your hands to feel for flatness, you can feel more than you can see and if you can feel it, it will show once you put the glossy paint on.

If your buying a welder get a 220V one (as ck85abc said).

If your buying an air compressor get the biggest one you can afford, a small one will really slow you down (in fact, save more money and get an even bigger one, with air, more is always better).

I hope this might be helpful, a get place for more info is: http://www.autobodystore.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?index

Gary

ck85abc · Post by **ck85abc** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:57 pm

All_talk wrote: When leveling panels, close your eyes and use your hands to feel for flatness, you can feel more than you can see and if you can feel it, it will show once you put the glossy paint on.

As long as I am here I will reafirm this. Very important.

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:33 pm

thanks everybody.

i think my final feeling is to do everything but the base coat and clear coat myself. the main reason for this is that unfortunately a clean place to spray is going to be a bit of an issue.

best,
gcorrado

Bobnotch · Post by **Bobnotch** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:52 am

I normally put the filler on over the first coat of DP, usually this layer of DP is still rough so it will grab, and the filler likes to grap on to rough things like 36 grit scratches, using thin layers. I do this because in my area, bare metal will draw moisture out of the air in 20 minutes and start rusting. See, filler is for dents, NOT rust repair, and I normally repair the rust with steel, so it will already have a semi rough finish then prime it to seal it. The DP also helps you to find the dents you want to fill. Once the filler is in place, I normally work it out where I want it, trying not to break thru the DP layer. Then I put my K-36 layer on, watching it as it goes over those areas I filled to get another look at it, and to start filling in the sand scratches. I may put on several coats (sanding in between each) until I get it where I like it. I sometimes add the DT870 to the K-36 to help do 2 things, 1 to help level it (thins the mixture), 2 for it to dry quicker (4 hrs vs 8 hrs). I then seal it in thinned DP (using DT870) to seal this layer because the paint will be drawn into the K-36 layer, and possibly cause color spots (light and dark areas) that can only be fixed by putting on more paint. I hope this helps.