Porsche vs. VW
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ShotgunSymphony
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:01 am
Porsche vs. VW
I wrote earlier about the VW motor swap into the porsche 911/912. Sounds like you can't do it with the 911. Can the motor in the 912 ever put out any decent power comparable to the 911? Can it be made fast, like around a 14 sec. quarter mile? Is there any other motor that would fit in the 911/912? Should I just bite the bullet and go with the 911? Thanks guys...
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metropoj
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:01 am
Well, comparison in HP ? Yes of course. The Type 4 engine ( See Jake Raby, I hear he does amazing things ) ..
Remember, the engine is much lighter than a 911, and 911 rebuilds are $$$ ....
Don't underestimate a T4 engine ... ( I assume your 912 has the T4 ? ) I have seen 2.5l 914's chew up 911's on the track ......
Remember, the engine is much lighter than a 911, and 911 rebuilds are $$$ ....
Don't underestimate a T4 engine ... ( I assume your 912 has the T4 ? ) I have seen 2.5l 914's chew up 911's on the track ......
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Shadowbug
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:01 am
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Guest
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metropoj
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:01 am
Guest,
912 guessing on value is pretty hard without seeing the condition. There are LOTS of hidden bad spots on those bodies, particularly frame horns, etc .....
In comparison to 911's, they were considered the 914 of Porsches before the 914 came out, less power, etc etc .... They got a bad rap, as did the 914 and 924 ...... they sold cheaper ...... but rare now ......
912 guessing on value is pretty hard without seeing the condition. There are LOTS of hidden bad spots on those bodies, particularly frame horns, etc .....
In comparison to 911's, they were considered the 914 of Porsches before the 914 came out, less power, etc etc .... They got a bad rap, as did the 914 and 924 ...... they sold cheaper ...... but rare now ......
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Guest
*I have a '67 912 that is t4 powered from a 914 wreck..
It's running with duel dellorto 36's and hooked to a 901 5 speed
out of a 911
It was allmost a complete bolt up!
All this was LOW BUCK
I used VW bus exhaust and starter..
The 912 was a "roller" and I gave $700 plus $250 for the engine
the Tranny came in at $300 on E-bay and same with the carb set
up for $200
*What's that? $1,500 bucks for a Porsche!
Doing it this way... I can keep the car and hunt for 914 engines
to race
Doc
It's running with duel dellorto 36's and hooked to a 901 5 speed
out of a 911
It was allmost a complete bolt up!
All this was LOW BUCK
I used VW bus exhaust and starter..
The 912 was a "roller" and I gave $700 plus $250 for the engine
the Tranny came in at $300 on E-bay and same with the carb set
up for $200
*What's that? $1,500 bucks for a Porsche!
Doing it this way... I can keep the car and hunt for 914 engines
to race
Doc
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Guest
metropoj wrote:Guest,
912 guessing on value is pretty hard without seeing the condition. There are LOTS of hidden bad spots on those bodies, particularly frame horns, etc
Yup.. that's the fact!
However.. there a lot of CHEVY PICKUPS with rust that run down the
hyway, and the repair with a grinder mig welder and bondo don't
amout to naymore than fixing that old Chevy...
My '67 912 got started when I began to hunt my old High School
so cal style '62 bug.. *price was a couple grad for the bug and
dirt cheap for the Porsche!
I think the "P-word" throws off your basic VW fan.
My 912 is no cream puff, and for sure no 911 turbo...
but it retains all the charm of a air cooled bug!
Doc
.....
In comparison to 911's, they were considered the 914 of Porsches before the 914 came out, less power, etc etc .... They got a bad rap, as did the 914 and 924 ...... they sold cheaper ...... but rare now ......
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metropoj
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:01 am
Ah Doc, REMEMBER that the CHEVY PICKUP has a separate bolt on frame. 912's DON'T .... 
It's difficult to compare a pickup truck with a Porsche model for rust because of this important basic fact.
You can take the cab and box off in less than a day and replace .... You don't have to worry about the frame horns leaving the car unibody while you're driving around town in a corner!
It's difficult to compare a pickup truck with a Porsche model for rust because of this important basic fact.
You can take the cab and box off in less than a day and replace .... You don't have to worry about the frame horns leaving the car unibody while you're driving around town in a corner!
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Wildrider49
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:01 am
912's with Type 4's and 912E info...
Guest,
I would love to see pics of your conversion. I have done the same with my 67 912. On my home site, you can see several other Porsche's with Type 4's in them. There's 2 356's, several 912's, and even a early 911 running the T4. You can get to my site from here: http://64.171.113.210
As for the 912E, it's the same car as the 76 911 S in all respects except: Transmission geared for 2.0 Type-4 powerplant out of the 914, Uses L-Jet EFI from the 1.8 914, has a smog pump, thermal reactors, Oil temp gauge does not have an oil level gauge in same gauge pod as the 911 does, non-vented solid brake rotors (can be replaced with the ventilated discs from the 911 S by removing a spacer in the caliper). Compared to the early 912's which used the 356 C engine, the 76 is 300 lbs heavier, only has 86hp, and real b**ch to get smogged in California. Thermal Reactors don't last forever and new ones are made from "unobtainium".
Early 912's with out engines can be had very reasonable. 4 and 5 speed trans were available. The original 356/912 engine can be made to get up to about 140 hp normaly aspirated. However, for the cost to get there, you could convert to a T4, only gain 25 lbs at the rear, and get as much hp and tons more torque. Not to mention alot more reliability.
--Tony
67 912 2.0 Type 4 Outlaw
72 914 1.7
I would love to see pics of your conversion. I have done the same with my 67 912. On my home site, you can see several other Porsche's with Type 4's in them. There's 2 356's, several 912's, and even a early 911 running the T4. You can get to my site from here: http://64.171.113.210
As for the 912E, it's the same car as the 76 911 S in all respects except: Transmission geared for 2.0 Type-4 powerplant out of the 914, Uses L-Jet EFI from the 1.8 914, has a smog pump, thermal reactors, Oil temp gauge does not have an oil level gauge in same gauge pod as the 911 does, non-vented solid brake rotors (can be replaced with the ventilated discs from the 911 S by removing a spacer in the caliper). Compared to the early 912's which used the 356 C engine, the 76 is 300 lbs heavier, only has 86hp, and real b**ch to get smogged in California. Thermal Reactors don't last forever and new ones are made from "unobtainium".
Early 912's with out engines can be had very reasonable. 4 and 5 speed trans were available. The original 356/912 engine can be made to get up to about 140 hp normaly aspirated. However, for the cost to get there, you could convert to a T4, only gain 25 lbs at the rear, and get as much hp and tons more torque. Not to mention alot more reliability.
--Tony
67 912 2.0 Type 4 Outlaw
72 914 1.7
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clarkblumberg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
It Fits...Type 1 into Porsche 912
I have done it and run it. For certain: A VW Type 1, 1300, 1500, or 1600 does fit into the Porsche 912 chassis. Specificaly, it will bolt right into your 901 transmission. However, you will need some longer studs on the engine case in order for them to extend far enough into the Porsche tranny's bell housing so you can thread the nuts on.
All you need to do is use your Superbeetle 12v flywheel but use a Porsche style diaphram assembly with the clutch. A Heavy Duty 200 mm friction disk is what I used with the Porsche Style diaphram assembly. The Porsche style diaphram has the individual fingers at the centre instead of the ring at the center of the diaphram that the VW clutches use. The fingers will interface correctly with the Porsche 901 transmission's stock Throw Out Bearing.
Now the only thing you need to consider is that the Porsche Starter will only engage into the Superbeetle Flywheel teeth approximately one third of the way since the VW flywheel does not stick out as far as the Porsche 912 Flywheel. Many say that this will wear out your Flywheel's starter teeth prematurely and others told my that they used it like that without problems.
My soloution was the remove the starter motor and then remove the rear aluminium housing off the starter that contains the starters mounting flange. I simply mounted and machined the housing on a lathe in order to remove about .100 inch off the flange surface. Basically speaking, this allows the starter to extend further into the transmissions bell housing so that it gets more bite on the flywheel and it covers more of the flywheels teeth surface thus reducing the wear on the flywheel ring gear teeth.
For exhaust I used a regular four into one Type 1 extractor with a regular single glass pack muffler that came with it and it fits fine except the exaust pipe exits under the right side of the valance panel other than the left side as the original 912's pipe did. If you can live with the half moon exhaust pipe cut out on the valance being on the right when you pipe is on the left then no problem. Otherwise, you will need to do some welding the change the muffler around.
For engine tin use the stock or chrome VW engine tin with the stock 912 Porsche Tin surrounding the engine. In other words, cut and trim the Porsche 912 Firewall, rear tin (over the muffler), and two side pieces to fit to the regular VW tin on the engine and bolt it together.
For a rear engine mount use a Type 2 bus mount adapter plate on your Type 1 engine block and use the stock 912 rear cross mount. Jack your engine to the correct level once it is installed into the car with the front tranny mounts installed then use some 2.5 inch angle iron to span between the bus adapter mount and the 912 cross mount. I used two pieces of angle iron for the left side of the pully and two on the right. Now just weld or bolt them together so your engine is hanging in position.
Go to my 911/912 pages through my web site at www.geocities.com/clarkblumberg for more info or email me.
Have Fun, Clark.
All you need to do is use your Superbeetle 12v flywheel but use a Porsche style diaphram assembly with the clutch. A Heavy Duty 200 mm friction disk is what I used with the Porsche Style diaphram assembly. The Porsche style diaphram has the individual fingers at the centre instead of the ring at the center of the diaphram that the VW clutches use. The fingers will interface correctly with the Porsche 901 transmission's stock Throw Out Bearing.
Now the only thing you need to consider is that the Porsche Starter will only engage into the Superbeetle Flywheel teeth approximately one third of the way since the VW flywheel does not stick out as far as the Porsche 912 Flywheel. Many say that this will wear out your Flywheel's starter teeth prematurely and others told my that they used it like that without problems.
My soloution was the remove the starter motor and then remove the rear aluminium housing off the starter that contains the starters mounting flange. I simply mounted and machined the housing on a lathe in order to remove about .100 inch off the flange surface. Basically speaking, this allows the starter to extend further into the transmissions bell housing so that it gets more bite on the flywheel and it covers more of the flywheels teeth surface thus reducing the wear on the flywheel ring gear teeth.
For exhaust I used a regular four into one Type 1 extractor with a regular single glass pack muffler that came with it and it fits fine except the exaust pipe exits under the right side of the valance panel other than the left side as the original 912's pipe did. If you can live with the half moon exhaust pipe cut out on the valance being on the right when you pipe is on the left then no problem. Otherwise, you will need to do some welding the change the muffler around.
For engine tin use the stock or chrome VW engine tin with the stock 912 Porsche Tin surrounding the engine. In other words, cut and trim the Porsche 912 Firewall, rear tin (over the muffler), and two side pieces to fit to the regular VW tin on the engine and bolt it together.
For a rear engine mount use a Type 2 bus mount adapter plate on your Type 1 engine block and use the stock 912 rear cross mount. Jack your engine to the correct level once it is installed into the car with the front tranny mounts installed then use some 2.5 inch angle iron to span between the bus adapter mount and the 912 cross mount. I used two pieces of angle iron for the left side of the pully and two on the right. Now just weld or bolt them together so your engine is hanging in position.
Go to my 911/912 pages through my web site at www.geocities.com/clarkblumberg for more info or email me.
Have Fun, Clark.
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Wildrider49
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:01 am
Nice Job ShadowBug!
Is that the DTM shroud? Can you give a few more details on the ignition system you are using? I will be adding a turbo in the near future and a .050 with a blue coil just isn't going to do it.
--Tony
67 912 2.0 Type 4 Outlaw
72 914 1.7
http://64.171.113.210
--Tony
67 912 2.0 Type 4 Outlaw
72 914 1.7
http://64.171.113.210
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clarkblumberg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
Shroud and Ignition
No it is not a DTM shroud. It just a plain old VW shroud off a 71. I am on a budget so I am running a 1641 in it with an old Holley Bug Spray Carb with an old style Bosch 009 distributor with a Super Coil. The Carb fits under the stock Porsche engine lid with no problems. WOW a Turbo sounds so cool...
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Wildrider49
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:01 am
