1915 VW versus KL-ZE V6 versus Suby EJ20T

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:18 am

Ben I think you will find that NSW and QLD are now aligned in respect to blue plating a car, so simpily a 60's bug can be upgraded to a 2.5L NA or 2L forced, and yes you are quite correct all aspects of the vehicle require attention, mainly braking, steering and restraints. The conversion that Wes is undertaking is completely legal and has been pre approved by the relevant authorities. Furthermore, at a wild guess I think that a conversion like Wes's could be done for under 5K if you were the handy type, as most of us are. Now I really don't want to start a slagging match, but the 10K 2L bug engine that you could strap together...I'm curious as to where the power band would lie and also the life expectancy of such a beast? I merely mention as Remmele straps together some wild 2.9L type 4's running over 10:1 and he only manages 220hp. How is a type 1 with its three main bearings and poor strength block casting meant to hold up to that sort of abuse because there?s no way on this planet that a 2L type one could manage those power figures on the friendly side of 8000rpm

[This message has been edited by Stephen (edited 08-29-2002).]

Bent · Post by **Bent** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:22 am

Hi
Stephen,
Be assured that a 200hp engine of that size type one is alive and well and has lived in the same case since 94 -95 on Earth in our hillclimb bug,(no turbo) has had several strip downs but not in recent years, max torque at 4600rpm, so its true it can be done it is very durable , I did not say the rev range is friendly but if it can survive what we do to it at King Edward Park, Dapto, Bathurst< Tamworth,Grafton, Mt Cotton, WakeField, Amaroo (when it was opened)Etc etc so it should take any boy racer or street / drag abuse if serviced correctly.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:22 am

If you look at Remmelles (sp?) motors, he runs rather mild induction (with airboxes), cam's, exhaust (with catalysts to apply with the TUV) and basically builds his car's with a flat, very driveable powerband in mind. HP is never rated just on capacity, valve and cam matching alone have more to do with making power nowadays. If you can make power in a 1500RPM power range rather than over a 6800RPM range, you will make more of it... simply because you're building it up. If that makes sense?!?!?

rather like pushing something scattered over a desk or floor into a pile.
And for some reason type 1's just make more power than type 4's. Who knows, maybe it's the way the parts move or just the 30 odd years of tuning know-how behind the type 1's.

C

Richard Olafsson · Post by **Richard Olafsson** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:30 am

The fact is: I drive my car every day (40 mile commute to work) and have done the conversion properly. Chassis, brakes and trans are uprated. I drove 4000 miles around Europe last summer in 2 weeks with faultless reliability. I didn't even need to top up the coolant!
In the UK we don't really have registration hassles so your regs in Australia aren't an issue for everybody.
Volume manufacturers go through intensive proving and reliability and they are bound to need much less maintenance (or any tuning) than a hopped up old design. I appreciate the work that is involved with tuning aircooled flat 4s but development is largely trial and error over years rather than analysis... That's why my car is adapted to accept high performance parts from VMs that have been tested to the limit. It also makes running expenses cheaper. Not to mention the fact that you know that in 5 years times you will still be able to get parts for it...

Rich

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http://www.ricola.co.uk

James2 · Post by **James2** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:57 am

You should just get another brand of car anyways.

I'd like to know how you build a 1914 with dual webers and 044 heads and get only a 100 hp? What an idiot, he doesn't deserve a VW.

Baja Wes · Post by **Baja Wes** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 6:02 pm

The HP curve comes from hot vw's, so call them the idiots.

Cam, I have been into VW's for 8 years, I know plenty.

Who cares about racing, I am using it for offroading, I want gobs of low down torque. A 200HP vw motor would not like idling around offroad at 1000rpm.

The car will be completely legal, and has been preapproved.

I think I will keep the whole conversion around $2500. This is Australian Dollars.

Why do you people bother looking in the conversion perversions forum.

[This message has been edited by Baja Wes (edited 08-29-2002).]

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 10:48 pm

anyway to surmise, if your content to accept marginal metallurgy, a limited rev range, poor longevity from a balls to the wall race VW engine achieving at best 70% volumetric efficiency from there Chevy like head designs, I encourage you all to spend up big to achieve your 1~1.5hp per cubic inch please don't take any notice that new jap production engines (na)are capable of 2hp per cubic inch and over 150K on the odometer, and don't even contemplate the fact that a mere mortal with a load of info can build a turbo injected motor to achieve 5~7hp per cubic inch. You tell me where I can see a type 1 or 4 achieving anywhere near the above and I'll be there to shake your hand. Oh and yes I've spent a bit of time out at Mt cotton and am aware of the blown type4 making 400hp...but if I were to convert an ej20 to methanol with the injectors to handle the boost (30~35psi) that can be stuffed into them if prepared properly then I know which one will be in front every time. At the end of the day technology has a large part to play in the numbers achieved by any engine SIMPLE FACT, that?s why F1 teams are in a constant development cycle.....you build me a type one with an alloy case, 4 bolt mains, 5 mains , h beam rods and 4 valves per cylinder and I'll smile 'cause you just built an EJ20

Oh and bent...your not affiliated with Stan Pobjoy are you...the list of credits sounds familiar...

TIMBERWOLF · Post by **TIMBERWOLF** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:25 am

I watch the 'which engines better than which' on these forums day after day. Type IV better than Type I scooby/mazda better than VW etc etc etc.

Although these forum's existance is for discussions, I don't see that this topic will ever be resolved. One guy who just likes his TypeI for what ever reason (some times just cos it's a 40+ year old design vw) will never be swayed that a turbo, 16v rice rocket is better, or a type IV or a wbx or a rotary. In certain circumstances, for a particular person there is a good engine that makes that guy smile when he drives the car. THAT is the best engine.

Wes has his v6 that will get him out into the boonies, reliably with good low down power. he might even enjoy the challenge of fitting it. Richard O has a wiz bang scooby up the back of his speedster, and I bet he smiles ear to ear when it's on boost, but neither of these guy's has any better or worse engine than the other, or the guy who has twin Kadrons on his 71 daily driver.

It's all horses for courses, so stop getting a bee in your collective bonnets and chill guy's, you'll never resolve this arguement cos there is no right or wrong.

Here endeth the first sermon.

Bent · Post by **Bent** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:27 am

Hi,
Steve, no I am not affil with Stan, he is one of my competition, sorry but i must make one other point , aint no Subaru Ej whatever is ever even gonna come close to Gumleys record breaking Type 4, thats old technology that even Cosworth engines with huge blowers can't come close to plenty have tried to beat him but know one comes away smiles except Gumley .I think it is 0 to 100km/h 2.8seconds.

Chiba · Post by **Chiba** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 11:15 pm

(In a Forrest Gump Voice)
"Mommy says stupid is as stupid does"

And that's all i got to say about that.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 5:06 am

hey Wes, I was looking at a pro stock style street beetle in a mag. The dude had raised the trans about 2 inches, maybe thats another option rathering than changing your sump?

C

O2_cooled · Post by **O2_cooled** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 12:25 pm

I personally am all for conversions as I could not afford to build a type 1 engine with enough power to satisfy my likes. However the KLZE is not the best engine, I own two probes and most everyone who swaps the klze into their probe has complaints about it. My personal conversion plans are 12a, their cheap, and very simple to work on.

If you want any info on the KLZE I suggest going to www.probetalk.com it has 15,000 members and I gaurentee it will awnser any question you could come up with.

Baja Wes · Post by **Baja Wes** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 3:17 pm

Timberwolf, I couldn't of said it better myself. On my comparison page, I never said one motor is better than the other. I simply compared them, and stated what I believed was the advantages and disadvantages of each motor.

I decided that for my purpose, and what I wanted from the engine, the KLZE was the best. If I was going out real far in the bush I might want a VW motor cos there is less to go wrong or whatever.

O2, thanks for the advice, I have been hanging out on the probetalk and MX6 forums for a while now, sucking info out of people. From what I can gather the people that seem to be disapointed with the KL-ZE are people that try and run the stock or rechipped KL03 ECU with the KLZE motor. I will run the complete KLZE and standard KLZE computer and all, so I shouldn't have any problems.

Cam, the type 2 trans conversion kit I run moves the rear of the gearbox up by about an inch. And the KLZE sump is an inch lower than standard so yes it will balance out in the end.

------------------
Wes offroadvw.net

[This message has been edited by Baja Wes (edited 08-31-2002).]

Bobby74 · Post by **Bobby74** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 3:35 pm

Not to start any wars, but 80HP in the back of a bug will get the front wheels off the ground (for a second). What do you think 150, 200, or more will do? Just point it and hope you make it since you can't see anything except sky in front of you? hang your head out the side window?

I hope to have 150, I can't use anymore than that... It would be nice, but who runs wheelie bars on the street (seriously not just for show)? I wouldn't for all the cops I'd have to deal with on top of the harassing I get already. Besides the kind of driving I do is long sweeping corners on the way to work. I wouldn't want to side step it 2 feet and be into a wall.. Now with 50-65hp I've sidestepped it 6 inchs and thats scary at 75mph

Good luck with your conversions, but you must only be using them on the weekends. Mine is for everyday, all the time. Call me a purist...

joe of centorg · Post by **joe of centorg** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 5:32 pm

O.K. you evil, wheelie poppin, PURIST :~)