What is so great about a Type IV Engine?

Darryl · Post by **Darryl** » Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:41 pm

On the same token, P-Tech's new T1 Billet case will open doors for increased longevity for "High Strung" T1 street power and bridge the large gap to a long life case like it's big brother. (T4)

As the T4 aftermarket ind. increases the temptation will grow and soon it'll be a luxury to have massive T4 internals and T1 power output and feel! I think the Rem' heads will make a HUGE difference all around.

Money is no object when building my toys, it's just that I like practical mods and ease of parts replacement. There are still some loose ends concerning the T4 install, but I am following along to see when it's time to do so!

If we meet this season we can give one another rides in our Bugs, I bet we both smile from adrenilan. (spell check)

Darryl · Post by **Darryl** » Fri Apr 27, 2001 12:29 am

What type of service would you recommend it needed after such a drive and a few 1/4 mile passes, then the same drive back?

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Fri Apr 27, 2001 4:17 am

The new T1 case is not going to be cheap and building a high quality T1 is not either.

The T4 world never had aftermarket cases or heads. There is a guy that made 5 pairs of an eliminator head for the T4 and one of the engines just got dynoed. 257 HP for a 2.7l T4 and that is German HP so the number is slightly higher in the US. If I look at the huge amount of aftermarket stuff for T1s I wonder why it is so hard to build a natural aspirated 200 hp motor and is totally streetable.

We would have to compare prices now for each component to see whether the T4 is really that much more expensive than a compareable T1.

Case lets say 400$ for a T4 to 1300$ for an al T1 case for stock tin. Lightweight lifter are the same for T1 or T4 450$.
Top of the line stock welded heads.....2000$ T4 1500$ T1?
PC set....600$ for 103s and 200$ for 94s?
Porsche fan, ignition, carbs are the same price so is the exhaust from Ahnendorp.
The T4 Porsche fan is actually a little cheaper.
One of the biggest problems for the T4 is the lack of forged cranks. A crank is double the price...700$ to 1400$ from Scat. Alfinger...a company in Germany that does cranks for Oettinger and other tuners and car manufactueres have tons of unfinished T4 forged Oettinger cranks lying around. The problem is that nobody can afford to buy all these cranks and get them machined by Alfinger. They should be cheaper than 1400$ though. Because of the aftermarket case for the T1 the T4 is not that much more expensive anymore. Maybe 1000-1500$???

I just do not want this argumentation to get a bad taste. If it comes down to what you like it does not matter whether you get a T1 or T4. I strongly believe though that if there would be enough money to develop new stuff for the T4 you could get more power out of it than out of a T1 engine....
Do not forget as well that if you make your T1 bigger....ie bigger crank and PCs the engine will get heavier too. You can not just compare a 1776 to a 2270 or a 2110 to a 2599.

Another note would be that a very good done 2.0 T4 can produce 150hp. What can you get out of a 1600 T1?

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:29 pm

I'm flattered. Yes, it will kill. I'm not going to start anything until I have pink slips.
2599 78x103. 48x40 heads. BAS 1 3/4" exhaust. Autronic SMC FI and 48mm throttle bodies. It should make close to 200 horsepower at an easy 8.5:1 at around 6800 RPMs. I'm hoping for 12s on street tires once I get the chassis figured out and dialed in. This is in a full weight IRS 62 rag body, seventeens, full interior, 5 speed, big 4 pot 4 wheel brakes. Ready to cruise.
Steve

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darryl:
According to one young man in Idaho, that's gonna KILL our T1 mills. LOL[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bad62bug · Post by **bad62bug** » Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jake Raby:
too far to drive the bug, I just cannot take the time, we are backlogged 3 months now, 7 days a week, 18 Hours a day and still cannot keep up..

I drive my car 500 miles/week, and would take it to Alaska, given the opportunity...

The type 1 mill will not be killed, it will deserve a good service as soon as possible...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> what service will it need thanks

Darryl · Post by **Darryl** » Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:07 pm

So Steve, your car is done?

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Tue May 01, 2001 9:04 am

Oh no, I wish!!! I meant "ready to cruise" when it is done, with the hardware it has

------------------
Steve Arndt

Darryl · Post by **Darryl** » Thu May 03, 2001 2:07 am

The type 1 mill will not be killed, it will deserve a good service as soon as possible...[/B][/QUOTE]

Jake, any insight on the service suggested after my journey to Maple Grove?

Thanks in advance

vw12sec67 · Post by **vw12sec67** » Sat Jun 09, 2001 7:54 pm

Jake, do you then feel that a built (180-200hp, 2.2 or 2.3 liter) type 1 could not be low maintinance, or that it could not do a cross country drive, if properly assembled using high quality parts? Your opinion is appreciated.

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jun 10, 2001 4:41 pm

Yes, you can have long trips with a type 1, but they always seem to need "fiddling with" I have driven type 1 powered cars across country on 2 occasions, both times over 2,300 miles.

The type 4 is a "get in and drive" powerplant, that needs very little maintenance for doing higher speed cross country treks. I just got back from Atlanta, at our bug club meeting, while there A future customer wanted to see my shop, so he followed me home...His type 1 powered car was pushed to the maax at 80MPH, and it overheated so bad he had to stop, and let it cool..My type 4 powered car never got over 180 on the oil temp, and the heads never hit 340 degrees, not even with a headwind and up hill grades everywhere, on a 90 degree day..

The type 4 is better suited for higher speed cruising, because it is a beefier engine, that has 20% more surface area to effectively dissipate heat..

So the answer to the question is yes, a 180 HP type 1 can be driven a long distance, but I don't foresee 85-90 MPH at sustained RPM for over 10 minutes, without trying to get hot...The type 4 laughs at 85MPH, and is at less than half throttle.

vw12sec67 · Post by **vw12sec67** » Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:32 pm

Thanks Jake, that is certainly something to consider. Type 4 is big bucks, but might be cheaper in the long run from what you have said above. Any handling/stability problems due to the additional weight of a T4 motor?

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:37 pm

The type 4 is 27-35 pounds heavier,(when converted to upright) most cars never even notice the difference...My car handles better with the type 4, over all the other type 1 engines that have lived in it..

The type 4 is NOT more expensive, than a comparable type 1 engine...A little more initial expense, sure does save money in the long run....A type 4 engine also holds it's value, if you ever want to sell it...I just sold mine, out of my thing, to make room for a 2,666cc beast and I never even advertised it...

ZionVier · Post by **ZionVier** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:43 am

Ok, now I am interested in the T4 engines after reading all of these posts. I have a 1970 Bug, with a new rebuilt transaxle (1 year old, after rebuild). The engine is the stock 1600, with 106K miles on it and hasn't been rebuilt. I'm anticipating it to need a rebuild soon, but I'm interested in the T4 engine now instead.

I'm a little sick of maxing out at 80Mph... and hitting only 85Mph for second or two while I pass someone. I want my bug to have some balls.

I can either drop some money into the T1 engine I have and have it machined to a larger bore, bigger cams, and dual carbs and such stuff... or I can look into spending some money on a T4 engine.

I'm curious to know if I would be able to get a "small" (for lack of a better word) T4 engine for a little more than upgrading the T1?

Can anyone give me a simple price compare on this? I'm not too familure with upgrading engines... all I can do is keep mine running

I drive from New Jersey to North Carolina fairly often, and would like to start using my bug. It sounds like a T4 might be the way to go.

-ZionVier
'70 Customized Bug (Sabrina)

ZionVier · Post by **ZionVier** » Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:53 am

oh, one other question... would putting a T4 capable of doing 100+Mph require me to get a new transaxle since the one I have is a stock rebuilt one (4 gears)? It is already at a high RPM going 80Mph.

-ZionVier
'70 Customized Bug (Sabrina)