Type 1 vs. Type 4

dan · Post by **dan** » Thu May 24, 2001 11:24 pm

>>>Dan, you can see some of my stuff on my site. And I do remember you slamming me and a few others about the deck lid thing on the old clf. I also remember your slam against my 69 efi Berg 2161 T1 as not being a callook car<<<

tom,

you are correct that i may have slammed your berg mis-quote, in which you and others claimed that gene said that the decklid should be opened at the bottom... you were obviously wrong... why resent it??

but i never made a comment regarding your car and whether or not it was a true cal look vehicle... you have me totally mixed up with someone else... further, i'm on the record multiple times for dissing 48 ida's as being the inefficient pigs that they are

i'll take your berg fuel injection any day.

i'm into performance, period; i drive a boosted vehicle, and there is not even any cal look stuff on my website... i am not qualified to comment on the details of the california look, and i'm sure not gonna criticize people about it.

please get your facts straight.

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

dan · Post by **dan** » Thu May 24, 2001 11:52 pm

>>>You have a hydraulic option on the T-4 (the T-1 hydraulics suck). T-4s already have<<<

john, good buddy, you didn't address the problems with the type 4 hydraulic lifters going flat... how come?

>>>You can't run a type 1 at over 130hp for an extended time because the sucker will overheat and self destruct.<<<<

i've put over 200,000 miles on bigger-than-stock type 1's... over 80,000 miles of that was on 2.1 liter type 1's, and THEY DID NOT OVERHEAT... did it ever occur to you that maybe that giant compression you are always preaching could have been a factor in YOUR type 1's overheating??

beyond that, there are dozens of success stories on the clf that claim the opposite of what you are saying here... greg ward and ohio tom come to mind.

>>>somewhat cool. But still, the limit is under 120hp. The fin area on the heads is<<<

i put a turbo on the 2.0 liter motor i'm running now, and it still does not overheat... and it makes a LOT more than 120 h.p.

>>>and header fitment sucks). LARGE displacement on a T-4 is cake, you are pushing it at 2.4L on a T-1. Why are all the<<<

that is the reason to go with a type 4... you can build it really big, and end up with a stronger bottom end.

>>>FAT engines T-4s for off road (if not H2O cooled)? EXTENDED power output. Their engines would lose if the race was 5 miles, but they are not 5 mile races, they are 200-1000, and in that category, the T-4 is superior.<<<

at those same races are stock classes that are limited to single-port, stock type 1 configuration motors... those people run the same course as the type 4 people, with the pedal on the floor... their type 1's run for the entire season(110+ degree desert heat), and more.

>>>Most of the guys "here" are going to the T-4 for a FLAT torque curve and long engine life, which the T-4 engine matches very well with (better than the T-1).<<<

you know, i've tried to get some exact info out here on how the torque curve of a 2.0 type 4 is better than a 2.0 type 1, but nobody has been able to provide it... and vague references to shorter rods are not the answer.

do you have any facts to back up those claims?

claiming that type 4 heads are o.k. because they may or may not crack in a sedan is totally weak... how many tens of thousands of type 1 heads have been run in buses without cracking?

obviously, as you just proved, the type 1 head is far superior to the type 4 head... which is why i don't run type 4 stuff.

>>>BTW Dan, see you at Sac!

Bringing hats for sale?<<<

i'll be there, buddy, and i got a hat for you if you need it!

thanks for the discussion,

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

dan · Post by **dan** » Fri May 25, 2001 12:14 am

>>>What adds up is, t4 threatens to siphon off enthusiasts from t1, which negates Dan's investment in t1 videos<<<

well, thanks for plugging the bikini clip

for now, type 4's can't drag race, so they are not a factor in that market... btw, those guys don't care if it's pauter, autocraft, aarpm, or whatever case makes real h.p.

and i have never had a street car guy(dd3, rkc2000) ask if there were any type 4's in those tapes.

the market for the type 4 performance/conversion stuff we are talking about here is very small when compared to the type 1 performance market.

but it's only a matter of time until someone gets a set of those pie-in-the-sky type 4 heads, and makes some real h.p. at the dragstrip... i hope i'm there to shoot it.

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

JohnConnolly · Post by **JohnConnolly** » Fri May 25, 2001 12:18 am

I don't think this thread is out of hand. I also don't think Dan has a "business interest" in slamming the T-4. The fact is there haven't been a decent number of QUALITY T-4 powered cars available to him at the Western shows (I've been there, I know).

That's going to change soon, and I'm sure he'll be covering them when they finally show up. It will be very cool when some T-4 powered cars hit the RKC, I'm looking forward to it!

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Fri May 25, 2001 2:03 am

Dan,<<My friend Russ Fellows used to run T4 heads ported to the max and achieved 260bhp with a 2.4 turbo.He then fitted Porsche OHC heads and gained 50 extra BHP.
=129BHP per litre.>> In this configuration it ran 11.7. We felt that we had reached the limit of the type 4 head so we fitted 911 OHC heads .It is now just shy of the tens with 310BHP.
He drives 300 miles round trip to and from the strip, covers 20000 miles a year, has been class champion 5 years and has never used a type 1 engine ever!!!
ps and never had a cracked head or dropped valve seat .
Dan, GET IN THE NOW!!!

marco the steem engine · Fri May 25, 2001 3:01 am

The problem is always heat! The more power you produce the more heat is generated, the more cooling is needed to sustain that Hp, I think we are getting to the limits of air cooled motors( T1 or T4 ),Yes the T4 has better cooling than the T1, VW realised that the T4 motor was going to produce more power and made it with better cooling! VW finshed up with the T25, the best parts from both motor's and realised water was the only way to go to disapate the extra heat to provide the reliablity at Hi HP levels, even Porsche Know's they got to a limit with there HP verses Air Cooling, so now there all water cooled!
If you stay air cooled there will be a limit on HP, Delve into porsche parts to control the heat but theres alway's a limit.
VW Has helped us with the waterboxer(Flat4 water cooled t1/t4 mix motor.
Best of Both World's

Oliver Knuf · Post by **Oliver Knuf** » Fri May 25, 2001 3:28 am

Guys, that's fun to read all the topics.

I'm happy to live in a country, where both engines are respected and used. Your opinions are sometimes somewhat crazy, I can't believe it, nothing personal to special participants! I raised with the T4, so I can give enough positive AND negative statements, that I have seen and tested in my short 27year old live! I don't want anyone to believe something, that "anyone" never saw and tested, so I'll only read, no more tales from over the pond! Ok?

))))

Brandon Sinclair · Post by **Brandon Sinclair** » Fri May 25, 2001 8:56 am

This thread is hilarious-please do not close it is providing me great entertainment during a boring day at work. Now I don't claim to be an "expert" on either the Type 1 or Type 4's, but I do enjoy reading about other peoples experiences and what they have learned over the years so that I too may pick up some new ideas that may lead to better performance. I have got to laugh about all of these replys defending something that was previous stated-that is funny stuff-maybe it wouldn't happen if the original point was presented more clearly. Anyway I don't care if you are into Type 1's or Type 4's as long as you are into VW's. Have fun.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Fri May 25, 2001 10:36 am

Dan,
Why haven't you registered with the shop talk forums?

Chris Stanford
Montgomery, AL

dan · Post by **dan** » Fri May 25, 2001 1:55 pm

Hi, the reason I am posting right now is to cause trouble and bring havoc. Blah, Blah, Blah.

No, really! I think it is important to register to post. You know why? I'm not "dan" since I just typed in that name as my name...

You all know who I am. I'm the Poor Realist! [email protected]

Have fun guys! Long live VWs, even if they are watercooled and plush nowadays. As long as it's in the family (at least with cars), then we have no problems, just lively discussions. Have a good Memorial Day weekend.

Later,
Steve G.

Poor Realist · Post by **Poor Realist** » Fri May 25, 2001 2:03 pm

How'dja like that? Pretty funny, eh?

Yeah, I think we should have a T-1 vs T-4 blow-up-a-thon. Can we broadcast it over the net? I'd sit my lazy butt down in front of my monitor to see that one!

Steve G.

PS - yes, I now the IPs are recorded, but people don't always see them...

[This message has been edited by Poor Realist (edited 05-25-2001).]

dan · Post by **dan** » Fri May 25, 2001 2:17 pm

yea, as long as dan doesn't register, we can all take turns being dan!!!!

Love James

Poor Realist · Post by **Poor Realist** » Fri May 25, 2001 2:43 pm

Unless, of course, some smart aleck decides to register dan before dan gets a chance to... Now *that* would be funny!

gingerdog · Post by **gingerdog** » Fri May 25, 2001 3:21 pm

Good to see Jake back in here

Darren

Matt Harris · Post by **Matt Harris** » Fri May 25, 2001 5:06 pm

First, Dan you say, "did it ever occur to you that maybe that giant compression you are always preaching could have been a factor in YOUR type 1's overheating??

beyond that, there are dozens of success stories on the clf that claim the opposite of what you are saying here... greg ward and ohio tom come to mind."

That's a circular argument. First you say that c/r is John's problem w/ high horse type 1's then you say that people are having great success with hi performance type 1's, but they have high c/r? What?

Secondly, just because you put

after a rude statement doesn't make it OK. You do it all the time here and on the CLF, and it's very disrespectful. Plus myself and many others that I know from the forum get sick of it.

It really bothers me to see all the rude disrespectful statements you make to others, much less if they were directed to me. It doesn't matter if you put a little winking smiley face or whatever, because the tone of the reply says it all. Why are you so hateful and mean. I have spoken with you on the phone before when I bought the PRA 99 video and you were very nice and professional, but then on the internet you turn into Mr. Hyde or something, what gives? Tom Hansen and John C. are very nice guys, always trying to help out and such, and they do not deserve the abuse or disrespect that you treat them with.