Oxyboxer - how does this setup sound? plus various questions

Here's the place for info on converting to a Type V motor!
kaferboy
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 12:01 am

Oxyboxer - how does this setup sound? plus various questions

Post by kaferboy »

Just exploring the possibilities and getting my head around the feasibility of a few of my ideas.

I was *just* about to start placing orders for parts for a 2387 Type 1, when I happened across this forum, and am looking to get a big cc motor for very limited street and lots of strip application.

So far I'm looking at getting a late WBX case, dropping in an 86mm Type 1 crank with the correct bearings/mods, using 101.6 B&P's, keeping the original bolt spacing and modifying a set of Competition Elim. heads to work with the bolt spacing (I have heard it rumoured that these can be obtained 'undrilled' - is this the case?). Thats all theory, now I need to look into the real world of 'will any of this actually work?' :lol:

Now my questions - I have used the search button and looked at the sticky, but am left a little confused on many points.

Will the 101's go straight in, or will I need to machine away some of the fins as I have seen when using 94's?
To what depth do I need to do this?
What rods would work best with this setup?
Will the pistons need special pin heights?
Could Type 4 103mm p&c sets work with the standard WBX stud spacing, or is this just too big (assuming I could get a head that could be bored to that size)?

Many Thanks for any answers guys - I'm really intrigued by this forum and its ideas!
User avatar
Unkl Ian
Posts: 872
Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 12:01 am

Post by Unkl Ian »

The Type 4 bolt pattern is different to Type 5.
Not sure how close they are.
Pillow
Posts: 2940
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:01 am

Post by Pillow »

I am not sure about the 101s as far as stud spacing.

A lot of those questions just depand on what you want to do. Like rod ratio, compression, what pistons (T4, JE, T1 or whatever), and such.

That is kind if the good and bad with the Oxy motors... You can build whatever you want :)
It is not so cut and dry as the T1 combos.
Torch
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:01 am

Post by Torch »

Have you seen these heads:
http://www.jpmotorsport.se/default_e.htm
You can order those heads with wbx head stud pattern and the flow no's are rather good straight from the casting.

I bet you can fit 103mm piston to the case and those heads, but cylinder wall would be too thin in my opinion. According to jpmotorsport, you should not go over 102mm bore.
kaferboy
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 12:01 am

Post by kaferboy »

Thanks for the replies guys
Unkl Ian wrote:The Type 4 bolt pattern is different to Type 5.
Not sure how close they are.
Would that make a difference with the cylinders, I would imagine it would be a pretty simple operation to clearance the fins on them? I think I have an old Mahle barrel & JE piston 103 lying around somewhere from a 2366 Type 4 I used to have - I need to dig around and take some measurements off it.

[quote="Pillow""]I am not sure about the 101s as far as stud spacing.

A lot of those questions just depand on what you want to do. Like rod ratio, compression, what pistons (T4, JE, T1 or whatever), and such.

That is kind if the good and bad with the Oxy motors... You can build whatever you want
It is not so cut and dry as the T1 combos.[/quote]

Pillow, I'm a bit stunted when it comes to knowledge on rod ratios - I need to do a bit more research. Anyone know where there's a good 'idiots guide' to rod ratios and there effects?

In terms of CR, I'm intending for this to be a sometimes streeter (not a daily!), but mainly racing (goal is to join the outlaw flat fours - www.offdrc.co.uk) - and accept for this setup to use a WBX/101.6 bolt spacing I'm limited to probably fairly wild cylinder heads (cooliing fins wise I mean), so would need to keep an eye on the CR to at least keep the head temps in check a little.

Hmmm... more research needed I think!"

Thanks guys!
User avatar
hotrodsurplus
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:43 pm

Post by hotrodsurplus »

...rod ratios - I need to do a bit more research. Anyone know where there's a good 'idiots guide' to rod ratios and there effects?
I apologize for barging in here, but I've got a little bit of experience with rod ratios. Don't take what I'm going to state as gospel; it's just a springboard into the subject. I also apologize for the length of the following. It's a complex subject even when oversimplified.

For the background, rod ratio is a ratio expressed thusly: rod length:crank stroke. To use the Type I as a guideline, it works thusly: 5.394":2.725". By dividing the rod length with the crank throw, we find out that the rod ratio is 1.979:1.

That ~2:1 ratio is by no accident. For whatever reason, it's a figure that works well with general-purpose engines all the way up to healthy race engines.

There's a LOT of information about this, and I'm going to oversimplify the subject. I'll address a few of the things that I know.

The speed of the engine dictates the overall piston speed, but the rod ratio dictates how the piston behaves as it changes direction. A very low rod ratio (1.5:1) rod ratio will cause a piston to change directions at TDC and BDC very rapidly. Compared to an engine with a 2:1 rod ratio, that faster directional change puts greater negative pressure on the intake port during the cylinder filling incident and greater positive pressure on the exhaust port on the exhaust incident. In other words, it more efficiently fills and evacuates the cylinder. You can mask a really bad port job or a poor intake/exhaust combination with a very low rod ratio. As a result of this more efficient pumping dynamic, engines with very low rod ratios are known for making decent torque, but in a relatively limited speed range. The Type IV engine has a very low rod ratio (I don't know the exacts at this point, but I believe it's at about 1.6 or 1.7:1).

To paraphrase a deceased parts vendor who's often quoted as omniscient when it comes to VW performance (who I believe didn't fully understand rod ratio), there's no such thing as a free lunch.

That more efficient filling capacity has a tradeoff: it's easy to reach the flow capacity of even a very good cylinder head before the engine reaches its peak efficiency range. Depending on who you talk to, this is debatable, so I'm not going to take a stance on it. Treat it as food for thought.

There's also the matter of combustion efficiency.

In an engine with a very high rod ratio (2:1, let's say), the piston spends considerably more time at TDC when compared to an engine with a very low rod ratio. That translates to combustion efficiency, which in turn translates to greater energy efficiency (more power). In other words, as the piston takes its sweet time going from the compression stroke to the power stroke, the flame front can more effectively burn the available material in the chamber and create more pressure. That means more bang for the buck.

There's also the matter of dynamic compression ratio. This isn't to be confused with static compression ratio, which is the relationship between the swept cylinder volume and the chamber volume. Static compression ratio is but one element in a formula that includes cam timing and rod ratio. You hear people reference static compression ratio all the time as if it means everything; however, the real information is in the dynamic compression ratio. In other words, people who quote static compression ratio exclusively are basically saying a girl's figure is 36. By giving you the dynamic, on the other hand, they'd be saying she measured 36-24-36 and is 5'10" tall.

Okay, here's the relationship between rod ratio and dynamic compression ratio. Lower rod ratios and their more efficient cylinder filling efficiency have the effect of RAISING the dynamic compression ratio. When you hear about people making these statements that low-rod-ratio engines are notoriously detonation sensitive, they're inadvertently referencing that principle. For example, they may have built 1,000 engines with a 2:1 ratio and a particular cam timing and a particular static compression ratio for years and never had a problem, but as soon as they build one with a 1.7 ratio with all other factors being the same as before, they get detonation. They inadvertently increased the dynamic compression ratio and made the engine ping.

The inverse is also true. I remember that Berg guy railing against people who wanted to achieve a 2:1 rod ratio. In one of his blue bibles, he backed up his stance by saying that he increased the rod ratio in an engine and left everything else in the engine alone so he could chart the effect on rod ratio. When he timed the car, the car turned a higher ET and slower trap speed.

The flaw with the argument is that he left everything else alone. You have to think of an engine as a combination, and not just individual elements. When he increased the rod ratio, he effectively LOWERED the dynamic compression ratio. The engine made LESS power, naturally. Had he increased the static compression ratio to compensate for the loss due to the increased rod ratio, the engine would've made considerably MORE power than it would've with the lower static compression ratio and rod ratio. Had he increased the static JUST ENOUGH to maintain the dynamic compression ratio and no more, he would not have encountered detonation.

Now I'm going to make a very broad statement of my own, but it's based on a lot of internal combustion engine research. The 2:1 rod ratio is a very safe figure around which to build an engine. Due to many of the engine builders with which I've worked, it's a good combination of cylinder-filling efficiency and combustion efficiency.

As I mentioned, before, don't take this as gospel. I may have gotten one or two things wrong, but that's rod ratio in a really oversimplified nutshell. In fact, I'd like to get some perspective from people who know more about the subject than I do. I'm not above learning more.
kaferboy
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 12:01 am

Post by kaferboy »

hotrodsurplus -you da man!!!!

Seriously, thanks for that, its given me a lot of information in such a way that I can understand it, and hopefully build on it.

Thanks for taking the time to reply!
51MAN
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:01 am

Post by 51MAN »

Oh bugger.... just throw another spanner in the works then...

something else I have to consider and determine before specing pin heights on pistons...

SO what you are saying is short rod helps torque.. but long rod helps efficiency
pin height would have to be bigger on a short ron and smaller on a long rod for the same combo.. smaller would mean a shorter lighter piston too...
User avatar
Stripped66
Posts: 1904
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:01 am

Post by Stripped66 »

The problem with using a 2:1 rod ratio on anything but the stock engine is ENGINE WIDTH and finding LONG ENOUGH RODS.

86mm stroke...a 2:1 rod ratios requires a 6.8" rod :lol: :lol: :lol: The more common combo is using a set of 5.7" rods which will give you a rod ratio of 1.68. While this ratio is low, the reality is your engine is NOT going to be a high-RPM screamer, and using a decent, premium piston will sufficiently handle the stresses on the pin boss at TDC.

Rod ratios can certainly be tailored to ones advantage to maximize the flow characteristics of their heads for a given operating RPM range and cam...not just masking a bad port job. Simply, whatever merits one may argue about a tall rod ratio, its application is not realistically feasible on a (large) stroked VW engine.
User avatar
hotrodsurplus
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:43 pm

Post by hotrodsurplus »

You're very welcome, and thank you for noticing. I'm glad I can help.
short rod helps torque.. but long rod helps efficiency
Good point, and one that I should've addressed earlier. Actually, we should think of efficiency in two ways here: pumping efficiency and combustion efficiency.

The shorter rod benefits pumping efficiency due to its "snappier" reciprocating action (speed at which it changes direction) at TDC and BDC. That's why I proposed that a shorter rod compensates for poor intake/exhaust port design (too big and wrong shape, usually).

The tradeoff to that increased pumping efficiency, though, is that the pump (the engine itself) will eventually overcome the ports' ability to flow more air/fuel. After that point the engine will not make good power (it cannot breathe). The pumping efficiency basically becomes too good for the engine's own good.

The net result of a short-rod engine is that it will make decent torque, but only within a very narrow speed range. Take the stock Type IV engine for example. It's great at hauling a Westfalia, two adults, a kid, two dogs, and a weekend's worth of camping gear; however, it doesn't really reveal itself as a great racing candidate until it gets longer rods (among other things like cam timing, port work, induction/exhaust, etc...). That's not to say it cannot be a good powerhouse (which it really is); it's just to say that it's not going to produce intense amount of power over a very diverse speed range.

While the longer rod reduces the engine's pumping efficiency to a degree, it's not necessarily a bad thing. With properly designed ports and combustion chambers that are matched to the overall engine design, the long-rod engine will make torque over a greater speed range.

The longer rod benefits combustion efficiency (longer usually equals better) since the piston stays at TDC longer during the combustion incident. However, there is also a tradeoff to too great of a rod ratio. I'm speaking out of theory rather than expertise here, but I would say that you need only enough dwell time at TDC for the flame front to travel from the spark plug, across the piston head, and to the cylinder walls.

I would also imagine that too long of a rod will decrease the pumping efficiency too greatly.

The key, of course, is matching the rod ratio to the engine's operating speed range. I wish I could tell you the formula for this equation, but it's beyond my comprehension. That's why I defer to the professional engine builders who say, for the most part, that most engines work well at or just below 2:1. Also consider that the Type I engine (1500 and 1600) has about a 1.94:1 ratio.

Now here's the summary: a short-rod engine will build good PEAK torque, but will develop that torque over a more limited speed range. A long-rod engine may not develop just as much peak torque as a short-rod engine, but it will develop a greater amount of torque over a greater speed range.

Now to influence you as to what you want when it comes to a power band, I'm going to reference a prevailing objective among engine builders nowadays. It's the prospect of creating power over a greater speed range. Builders usually refer to it as "power under the curve." This is the idea: you want an engine that makes respectable power over a greater speed range rather than an engine that makes enormous power within a very limited range.

For example, an engine may make 650 lbs-ft torque at 7,500 rpm but will be a total dog if it makes absolutely NO power above or below those speeds. It would have a great peak number but no power elsewhere. Its power curve would look like the Matterhorn.

If, on the other hand, you built an engine whose power curve started making 400 lbs-ft torque at 2,500 rpm, peaked at 450lbs-ft at 5,500 rpm, and made at least 300 lbs-ft until 6,000rpm, you'd SHRED the engine that made 200 lbs-ft more torque. It'd have a torque curve as broad and flat as Kansas.

The 650lb-ft engine would win the bench-racing session, but the engine with the lesser peak torque figure would win on the track. Plus it'd be way more fun to drive (torque=fun). Incidentally, we should all get away from quoting horsepower figures. Horsepower is a mathematical figure derived from torque and speed. It looks good in magazines, however, so it will probably stick around forever.

In short, rod ratio is but one figure in the equation to make power.

Okay, as complicated as all of this may seem, the limited nature of the VW world makes these decisions easy.

A stock VW rod is good to go in a 69mm stroked engine. Here's where the limitation comes in. If you stroke an engine to 74mm (which is very little), you'd need a 5.7-inch (Chevy length) rod to maintain that ~1.9:1 rod ratio. I'm sure you could adapt Chevy-journal rods as long as 6.2 inches (which are common nowadays), but you'd run in to a cylinder-length/pin height/engine width problem at one point. Probably the longest practical rod you could run in a VW would be about 5.7 or 5.9. If you're building an engine with more than a 74mm stroke, I'd say the 5.7 rod would be the best balance of practicality and power. Verify this with an engine builder, of course.
pin height would have to be bigger on a short ron and smaller on a long rod for the same combo
The pin height would have to be HIGHER within the piston on an engine with long rods; it would have to be LOWER on an engine with short rods. Remember, though, that pin height isn't as critical to VWs as it is to V8s as we can shim our barrels to tune compression ratios.
smaller would mean a shorter lighter piston too
A higher piston pin height would technically mean a lighter piston, as the pin would be closer to the crown of the piston. Remember, though, that the piston still has to have skirts on it. After one point, it won't get any lighter from pushing the pin higher.

Also, while I didn't really touch upon it, a longer connecting rod has the net effect of reducing the side loads on the piston skirts, cylinder walls, and so on.

Gotta go for now. Late, late, late!
User avatar
hotrodsurplus
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:43 pm

Post by hotrodsurplus »

86mm stroke...a 2:1 rod ratios requires a 6.8" rod The more common combo is using a set of 5.7" rods which will give you a rod ratio of 1.68.
Absolutely correct. Real life gets in the way of good design all the time. As i suggested earlier, our limited platform makes things simpler. At least we have that going for us! :wink:
Rod ratios can certainly be tailored to ones advantage to maximize the flow characteristics of their heads for a given operating RPM range and cam...not just masking a bad port job.
Again, you are correct. I brought that up as an example, not as the only real application of rod ratio. It certainly helps, though, when working with hogged-out heads from unknown sources.
Simply, whatever merits one may argue about a tall rod ratio, its application is not realistically feasible on a (large) stroked VW engine.
Again, true. It is good to know technical elements, however, when trying to understand what makes one combination work better than another. By bringing up these issues, you've brought very valid points to the table and made this a more dynamic topic.


[/quote]
51MAN
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:01 am

Post by 51MAN »

All good info...

I was going to mention the reduced piston side loading benefits of a longer rod, but forgot!!!!

Yes you can shim the barrels on an aircooled, but thats simply not possible on the wbx... not without some major surgery.. so we are stuck with a relativly short rod really..
taking an 82mm crank and 98mm pistons.. remembering the wbx has its combustion chamber in the piston so pin cannot be moved up much.. means we are stuffed... stock rod length or a fraction longer is all you are gonna get...
Anyone any idea what "type 1! rod off the shelf might work? using a 22mm pin as well...
User avatar
Stripped66
Posts: 1904
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:01 am

Post by Stripped66 »

You can shim the barrels on an oxyboxer conversion, which is what this thread is about. The deck of the oxy case is already about 0.700+" taller than stock, so you'll more than likely be cutting down the base of the barrel to set your deck height, even with long rods and long stroke.
51MAN
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:01 am

Post by 51MAN »

yeah sorry... Oxyboxer yeas you can "shim", keeping it watercooled you cant.. the info is still of use to us staying "wet"....... :wink:
23split
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:40 am

Re:

Post by 23split »

8)
hotrodsurplus wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:43 am
...rod ratios - I need to do a bit more research. Anyone know where there's a good 'idiots guide' to rod ratios and there effects?
I apologize for barging in here, but I've got a little bit of experience with rod ratios. Don't take what I'm going to state as gospel; it's just a springboard into the subject. I also apologize for the length of the following. It's a complex subject even when oversimplified.

For the background, rod ratio is a ratio expressed thusly: rod length:crank stroke. To use the Type I as a guideline, it works thusly: 5.394":2.725". By dividing the rod length with the crank throw, we find out that the rod ratio is 1.979:1.

That ~2:1 ratio is by no accident. For whatever reason, it's a figure that works well with general-purpose engines all the way up to healthy race engines.

There's a LOT of information about this, and I'm going to oversimplify the subject. I'll address a few of the things that I know.

The speed of the engine dictates the overall piston speed, but the rod ratio dictates how the piston behaves as it changes direction. A very low rod ratio (1.5:1) rod ratio will cause a piston to change directions at TDC and BDC very rapidly. Compared to an engine with a 2:1 rod ratio, that faster directional change puts greater negative pressure on the intake port during the cylinder filling incident and greater positive pressure on the exhaust port on the exhaust incident. In other words, it more efficiently fills and evacuates the cylinder. You can mask a really bad port job or a poor intake/exhaust combination with a very low rod ratio. As a result of this more efficient pumping dynamic, engines with very low rod ratios are known for making decent torque, but in a relatively limited speed range. The Type IV engine has a very low rod ratio (I don't know the exacts at this point, but I believe it's at about 1.6 or 1.7:1).

To paraphrase a deceased parts vendor who's often quoted as omniscient when it comes to VW performance (who I believe didn't fully understand rod ratio), there's no such thing as a free lunch.

That more efficient filling capacity has a tradeoff: it's easy to reach the flow capacity of even a very good cylinder head before the engine reaches its peak efficiency range. Depending on who you talk to, this is debatable, so I'm not going to take a stance on it. Treat it as food for thought.

There's also the matter of combustion efficiency.

In an engine with a very high rod ratio (2:1, let's say), the piston spends considerably more time at TDC when compared to an engine with a very low rod ratio. That translates to combustion efficiency, which in turn translates to greater energy efficiency (more power). In other words, as the piston takes its sweet time going from the compression stroke to the power stroke, the flame front can more effectively burn the available material in the chamber and create more pressure. That means more bang for the buck.

There's also the matter of dynamic compression ratio. This isn't to be confused with static compression ratio, which is the relationship between the swept cylinder volume and the chamber volume. Static compression ratio is but one element in a formula that includes cam timing and rod ratio. You hear people reference static compression ratio all the time as if it means everything; however, the real information is in the dynamic compression ratio. In other words, people who quote static compression ratio exclusively are basically saying a girl's figure is 36. By giving you the dynamic, on the other hand, they'd be saying she measured 36-24-36 and is 5'10" tall.

Okay, here's the relationship between rod ratio and dynamic compression ratio. Lower rod ratios and their more efficient cylinder filling efficiency have the effect of RAISING the dynamic compression ratio. When you hear about people making these statements that low-rod-ratio engines are notoriously detonation sensitive, they're inadvertently referencing that principle. For example, they may have built 1,000 engines with a 2:1 ratio and a particular cam timing and a particular static compression ratio for years and never had a problem, but as soon as they build one with a 1.7 ratio with all other factors being the same as before, they get detonation. They inadvertently increased the dynamic compression ratio and made the engine ping.

The inverse is also true. I remember that Berg guy railing against people who wanted to achieve a 2:1 rod ratio. In one of his blue bibles, he backed up his stance by saying that he increased the rod ratio in an engine and left everything else in the engine alone so he could chart the effect on rod ratio. When he timed the car, the car turned a higher ET and slower trap speed.

The flaw with the argument is that he left everything else alone. You have to think of an engine as a combination, and not just individual elements. When he increased the rod ratio, he effectively LOWERED the dynamic compression ratio. The engine made LESS power, naturally. Had he increased the static compression ratio to compensate for the loss due to the increased rod ratio, the engine would've made considerably MORE power than it would've with the lower static compression ratio and rod ratio. Had he increased the static JUST ENOUGH to maintain the dynamic compression ratio and no more, he would not have encountered detonation.

Now I'm going to make a very broad statement of my own, but it's based on a lot of internal combustion engine research. The 2:1 rod ratio is a very safe figure around which to build an engine. Due to many of the engine builders with which I've worked, it's a good combination of cylinder-filling efficiency and combustion efficiency.

As I mentioned, before, don't take this as gospel. I may have gotten one or two things wrong, but that's rod ratio in a really oversimplified nutshell. In fact, I'd like to get some perspective from people who know more about the subject than I do. I'm not above learning more.
Post Reply