Beehive springs - a theory

[Bruce.m]

So if you are thinking about beehives… you have options. If you aren’t… ditto

(I’ve ordered another 7 retainers . )

Cheers!

[Piledriver]

Re: ford 4.6 2v beehives...
The PACs were just the first thing I found with listed specs.
Ford sells beehives, and run about $50/16 from Ford motorsport.
(the stock springs may be beehives as well, have not researched)
Sadly (depending on if you'd like to go 7mm) the stems are 7mm, so to use them I'd have to find different keepers and retainers.

I have not seen keepers that fit properly out of the box in ages, they must not make contact on both sides or there is no clamp force on the valve and the keeper grooves will likely chew their way free. They typically fit fine after a few seconds of grinding.

The valves will still spin along with the springs. That is 100% normal, desired actually.

The main reason I'd look at these first is due to much closer to std rocker geometry.

[Bruce.m]

The PAC1214 & 1214X are an option. (& perhaps the stock items they replace).
The install spec is 1.68” so you’d loose a few lbs of preload (if you can use the offset retainer). Fine with the higher rpm “X” which has 120lbs @ 1.68”. Max lift is healthy too at 0.6” with 285lbs pressure. Potentially you could use a standard height LS3 retainer (7 degree, 8mm stem) which would probably give around 1.6” install height (would need verified) that would add a bit of preload & drop the max lift to around 0.52”

Actually, checking the catalogue, the 1214 has an install height of 1.64” so maybe one is a typo. There are a few in that catalogue!

Downside is it’s a narrow spring. So even on a T1 the guide boss needs machined & it’s quite tight. I think these are mentioned vaguely in the TOS advert, for that reason. However the ID is similar to a berg dual. You could run it with a locating shim so the install height works with the LS7 retainer. That seems like a good combo with plenty of lift capacity.

You mentioned about valve geometry. For clarity, the offset LS7 retainer isn’t a variable in that equation. The valve tip location remains unchanged (give or take a 1.5mm lash cap). The only change is the spring is given 0.14” more height at install from the stock VW height of 1.56”. The geometry is a factor of camshaft specs, rockers & lashcap.

[Piledriver]

Ah, missed that part, used the Berg +.100 retainers on wbx heads once for similar reasons.

I run the 911 adjusters, so nbd if the tip is a bit down the hole.

[Bruce.m]

My 7 extra retainers arrived, so I have a set on the shelf. The part number is GM 12596508 if anyone is wondering and they came in the genuine bag. A few dollars from your local dealer I imagine.

The PAC1286 springs Wreak uses are a good option I think for T4. 140lbs @ 1.7” install, 295lbs at 5.5” lift (max). Downside is the OD is just a touch too big for the recess in the T4 head, so 1-2mm extra is needed (ID should be okay I think).

I can’t see a drop-in option for the T4 which is a fairly minor hurdle. So a little machining is needed. The T1 head has a drop in option with the Viper SRT10 PAC1283 (+LS7 retainer). Good for 0.55” lift. The genuine dodge spring might have a touch less lift capacity but I haven’t seen confirmed specs.

If anyone sees any other options (spring top needs to be 0.63-0.65” ID and around 1” OD to work with the retainer. Some sources mix up the base / top measurements, IDs vs ODs.

[Bruce.m]

One more to add (using this as a notebook)

Comp Cams sell an idea set. Drop in for type1

Part number 26981-8
1.24” OD 0.825” ID
110 lbs at 1.7” install. 292lbs @ 1.175” height (0.5” max lift)

As you might have noticed from the part number they sell them in a box of 8

[Clatter]

i bought the ‘beehives done right’ from Dan Ruddock.

They’re in the car and working well for several thousand miles now.
Haven’t floated them badly enough to feel it but am running a rev limiter.

I don’t have details but remember a few things.

Guide bosses needed trimming a little but not nearly like with duals.
Was just a light skim of the OD..
Spring seat OD didn’t need opened IIRC.
Getting shims setup was a matter of opening up the center of dual spring shims.

Lift was limited to an 163/86b on stock 1.3 rockers.
And it was close to bind with the thinnest shims, depending upon how much lift a given rocker would give.
Betting that a regular 86b would give too much lift on the intake because those rockers give more lift.
86c was too much and bound. Not even close.

His retainers are custom-made if I remember right.
It’s pretty tight in there with swivel feet.
I’m vaguely remembering having to use real Porsche swivels because the CBs had bigger feet and fouled?
Maybe?

It’s been a few years,
And i do remember them being an expensive setup,
But they have been working well and given no issues despite being abused.

[Bruce.m]

Thanks for adding that insight.
I wondered if Dan’s set used the LS7 retainer since it has the same offset so interesting to read your info on that (photo of the LS7 part is above if you want to compare).

Reading up on the beehive springs, the guidance is to run them very close to bind to minimise the risk of valve float. Compressing the LS6 spring to max lift was surprisingly close to bind, when I did that in a vice

The ID of the retainer is circa 12.25mm at the valve tip (it’s tapered so varies), so maybe that would be tight for a swivel foot tappet, although adding a lashcap would solve that (contact point would be slightly above the retainer)

[Steve Arndt]

What to do if we have guide bosses cut for standard dual and want to run bee hives?

[Bruce.m]

You’ll be fine for space but there is a question of whether the spring needs a positive location at the base. I’ve read material for V8 that suggest a spring seat shim is needed to locate the spring correctly but I’ve no personal experience or opinion on that. The argument being the spring moves & damages ali heads if there isn’t a “locator seat”.

The stock springs have some clearance on the ID of a few mm, so perhaps on stock heads the OD is the locating pocket?

Also occurs to me that the OD of beehives (1.24-1.25” typically) is 2-2.5mm less than T4 stock springs so there is only ~1mm extra clearance on the OD. So not much room for the spring to move around?

[Piledriver]

Springs spin as the engine runs, so you really need some form of seat, esp on aluminum heads.