Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon May 02, 2022 9:07 pm

dustymojave wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 7:26 pm
This is the 1st time I've seen the steering brake handles next to the shifter from this angle. Have you tried those out? I suspect trouble with interference between the brake handles and the shift lever. You may want to sit in the car and try pulling those handles (while making "Vroom - Vroom" noises!). I know the brakes aren't plumbed so there won't be the normal resistance. To reduce interference, you could bend the handles outward maybe 20° a little behind the shifter housing. You don't want to bend them too far out and start trouble with the seats that will already be rather close.
Dusty, I'm in a very painful situation right now with my left side of the jaw and ears like an ear ache but much worse so let's try this.

Go back to around page 87 and you will see just what was done so I could stack the bus shifter and the turning brake mount together. The bus tranny sits about 3" higher so I had to make a custom shifter mount (nailed it on the first try). I ran it through the tube to mount the turning brakes and used nutserts in the tunnel to mount the turning brake mount to.

Since the tranny was in place at the time, I adjusted the seat and shifter handle to trans rod to the best location for me and the others at the different seat adjustment position then adjusted the turning brake handles to fit it.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri May 06, 2022 8:56 pm

I'm in the recovery stage of whatever I had. Couldn't eat or drink liquids for over 5 days, hard time even taking my pills. Saw several Drs and they know what the problem is but not what it is reacting to. The glands on the left side of my neck are/were reacting to something but even with tests they could not find out. They even gave me a COVID test (neg). There is also a thing going around in some hospitals that there is something new here in the PNW but they don't know what it is.

I am still very weak but got some thinking time on the black buggy.
7-28-2010 007 (2).JPG
IMG_2356 copy.jpg
These are older pictures showing the body lift being built and then the cage mockup showing my getting in all part of the height of the cage. Not all of our group are this tall and would need help getting in and probably stepping on the front fenders breaking them I also need side rails for side collisions which are not that uncommon out on the dunes.
IMG_2735 copy.jpg
This is a 4" long piece of 1 1/2" tube set roughly in place, sticking out far enough to be stepped on (would need to add a flat plate to step on as the tube would be too problematic. I will need to add a mounting bracket for it and duplicated on both sides of the buggy.
IMG_2737 copy.jpg
This is the front of the buggy showing the pan, body lift and that access thing that the windshield would have used. The tape is for rough connection points but since the inside tube for the hoop is not fully located is this is for remembering.
IMG_2738 copy.jpg
This is at the rear if buggy and located roughly where I think the rear hoop will be.
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The side bar will need to have at least two or three connections to the body lift and the same will have to happen with the needed bridge work between the front and rear hoops. The pix shows the rough bridging and the side bars will need to be supported in the same area for load transfer.

Do I like it... no but seeing how people drive I would hope it would be necessary but sine my Honda Pilot has tee'd in the side at the front wheels at least 3 times. Also I have had more that a few close calls especially with kids sitting in their father's lap steering the rig and not looking to the side(s) to see what, if anything, is around them as they enter other trails.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun May 08, 2022 3:57 pm

To continue discussion on the side crash bars.

Since I am working with a FG body that was not designed for what it is now intended on being used for I have to look (in my opinion) at things differently. So far, I have played, but not completely, with the internal parts of the cage but since the buggy has fenders there is another protection area that needs to be looked at.
001 copy.jpg


This is roughly that areas I am playing with.
Black buggy build 001 (2).jpg
This shows the location of the fenders which I have to protect. The rear join of the front fenders is roughly 1" above the body mount section of the body. Notice that the front fenders are not flat to the body mount clear back to the rear fenders. A day or two ago I posted some pix, but I had time today to play around with scraps of metal trying to figure things out.
IMG_2739 copy.jpg
I moved the crash bar a bit outward today using the scrap kerfed pieces that I used in the cage mockup. Not sure what the minimum bend will be but again, this a rough-in mockup to get a closer idea than just in my noggin.
IMG_2740 copy.jpg
This is looking roughly straight down to get an idea of some problems that the side bars are going to have to do besides protecting the occupants and the body (if they can anyway).
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this is from the front looking rear wards.
IMG_2742 copy.jpg
Problem #1, notice that the location of the tubes currently is towards the bottom of the body lift, not in the center. This is as high as the jack stands will lift so I think I will have to either get some spacers for under the stands or put air in the tires and put the front wheels on the rollers which will not allow the pan and body to be level fore and aft like it is.

Besides the keeping the body safer from side hits the crash bars will be used to get into the buggy by some of the shorter people so footrests will be needed and be low enough for the "tootsies" to go on them fully and be safe. The glass fenders will have rubber mats just-in-case, but the FG is thin enough that it wouldn't take much for them to break in any of several ways and directions.

Lee
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Tue May 10, 2022 2:13 pm

You could keep the side rails under the fiberglass fenders and support the fiberglass. Especially if you put tread of something like either self adhesive tread grip or roll-on pickup bed liner on the "running boards".

I suggest 1" x .065 wall tube for the side rails. That's what I have for "nerf bars" on my old Hi Jumper off road race car. Plenty sturdy enough to stand on and to fend off most side impacts. With the plan view shown below, they would be quite strong.
NerfBar_PlanView_01.jpg
Note that this plan view is for the right side, left side would be a mirror image. Note the sockets where the back and mid tubes meet the body lift. 1.25 x .120 wall makes good sockets for 1" tube. Pin the side rail into the socket with one 1/4" bolt at each socket. Flange the back of the socket to bolt (5/16" bolts here) it to the body lift tube.

I would angle the front of the side rails out from where they would mount at the bend in the side of the body lift tube to about even with where the cowl comes down to level. You would then need a piece of bar stock welded to the top of the side rail tube to rise to the bottom of the fender and follow along under it to where the fiberglass levels out. I would use like 1" x 3/16" hot roll bar for that. Put some low profile stainless bolts through the running board and the bar stock support like these:

Image
https://www.amazon.com/Hurricane-Stainl ... 1189&psc=1

If you want to bend your side rails yourself, you can go to Home Depot and get a "Conduit Hickey", which is for bending 3/4" EMT electrical conduit, which has a 1" OD and is about 16ga or 1/16" wall. A hickey is a tube bender that is just a shaped piece of aluminum and costs about $25 and you need a length of water pipe about 3' long threaded on 1 end for a handle for the hickey. Simple to bend it even considering you and I aren't as young as we once were.

Probably the best way to make that nerf bar is with only 1 bend . At the back corner, run the outboard tube just past the rear brace with the outer end of the brace fish mouthed to fit the outboard tube to it. Of course, close the ends of all tubes to keep sand and salt water out.

At the front of the side bar, it can be welded to a piece of flat stock that can be attached to the bolts for the bottom of the A-pillar.
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Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue May 10, 2022 3:55 pm

Dusty, the side bars are not just for supporting the fenders, they are side "crash bars"! You still see versions of them on new rails around here. I have had several close calls with people not paying attention going from one trail to another and if I hadn't noticed them first, I would have been T-boned or hit at an angle. My Honda Pilot has been side hit (mostly towards the front suspension) more than 3 times now and tie-rods for them are not available anymore.
DSC02270.jpg
When I park on the ocean like this, I try to find at least two stumps like this to park in-between for protection and people just are focused on what they are doing. Even the Sherriff stopped by once and congratulated me on being safe parking between the two stumps. Stumps are washed on shore then a good high tide, they can be washed out to sea then come ashore somewhere else again.

S'not like on a racecourse or an off-road racecourse (e.g, not going to Mexico as fast as you can). There doesn't seem to be any direction dictated on the beach or inland just the going or coming on the same narrow trails and digging donuts or jumping dunes. When on the dunes, people (?) just don't seem to be aware of anything else but what they are doing or who they are showing off for.

1" X .065 maybe which would give me more room to work but still, you can only make things somewhat idiot proof! :roll: :wink: Since the distance between the running boards and the body lift changes as the fenders rise, I would still have to put some kind of step (long notch to fit even a small foot) so the shorter people could get in.

One of the neighbors wife jumped her rail on to a trail where he was coming up and landed on his rail. He had to have more of the front of it replaced. Not too long after someone landed on her rail also.

The fore and aft top bars of the cage are another limiting factor also (I'm not moving them toward the center or the cage for sliding into or tipping into trees the people inside need protection also).

I would like to be able to bend them myself and I like your idea other than since the seat is movable 4" that puts the driver quite far forward in the body.

Stubborn Lee :wink:
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Tue May 10, 2022 10:11 pm

Did I call them "fender supports"?

NO.

I called them "nerf bars". In the world of Sprint cars they are used all the time and have been used since at least the 1930s. They've been used on offroad race buggies since the late 1960s. And most ALL of them use 1" x .065 wall tube.

Have you EVER watched a Sprint car race or a Mickey Thompson Stadium Offroad race and seen cars slamming into each other and tumbling around? I get the impression you haven't. Race cars on tracks and in the desert are NOT always going in the same direction.

Yes, dunes everywhere I've been people seem to compete for "Most Stupid". I understand that.

I designed these for you with exactly side impact protection in mind. If you build them so the side tube is just outboard of the fiberglass, you can add a vertical brace to the roll cage above the side of the body.

Build it how you like. It's your buggy.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue May 10, 2022 11:29 pm

dustymojave wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 10:11 pm
Did I call them "fender supports"?

NO.

I called them "nerf bars". In the world of Sprint cars they are used all the time and have been used since at least the 1930s. They've been used on offroad race buggies since the late 1960s. And most ALL of them use 1" x .065 wall tube.

Have you EVER watched a Sprint car race or a Mickey Thompson Stadium Offroad race and seen cars slamming into each other and tumbling around? I get the impression you haven't. Race cars on tracks and in the desert are NOT always going in the same direction.

Yes, dunes everywhere I've been people seem to compete for "Most Stupid". I understand that.

I designed these for you with exactly side impact protection in mind. If you build them so the side tube is just outboard of the fiberglass, you can add a vertical brace to the roll cage above the side of the body.

Build it how you like. It's your buggy.
I call them "crash bars" as that is what they are for. Nerf bars is a racing term... not a term for people not paying attention. Your design doesn't go far enough forward to protect the person when the seat is fully forward. The front of the seat is almost to the dash when shorter people are there.

Yes, back in the mid-60s I did go to our local track (3/8 mile dirt track) and a couple of the 1/4 mile dirt or asphalt tracks in the area along with the drag strip. (FYI) Because of one very nasty lady in our town I was blocked from getting into the car club and even getting a real job in town(s).
[/i][/b]

They are also t be used for shorter people to get into the car w/o stepping on the front fenders which are not strong enough to support a 2-year-old much less an adult if they are short.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon May 16, 2022 6:43 pm

IMG_0563 (2) copy copy..jpeg
This is a rough print of what I am currently intending to do with the side crash bars on the black buggy.

The red line is the diagonal from the pass side hoop joining the lower part of the driver's side of the hoop for some hoop security.
Broken on the dunes.jpg
This is my blue buggy and the front and rear cages, as the bent tubes joining the two hoops will be done like this. Some of the trails in the sand are so narrow and the sides drop off so quickly the bent sides are protection from sliding into trees. A lot of the trees are Spruce and range in height from 89' to 100'.

The center tube between the two hoops is used for getting in and out of the buggy as the seats are so low. The low seats are to keep the loads down towards the ground not up so your knees are above the body which some stock seats that are added do do.

The rear Truss/Kaffer bar set up as I currently have is still a positive object in the build.
IMG_0904 copy.jpg
IMG_2641 copy.jpg
The fuel tank also uses them.

Lee
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OrangeCrusher
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by OrangeCrusher » Wed May 18, 2022 5:42 am

Lee, I haven't been on in awhile because I've been work day and night to come up with a solution to your rollcage dillema. I'm not gonna say it's 100% all my idea but some thing along the lines of this. I superimposed the picture of you sitting in the buggy in this pic so you could see how well this design works and how simple it could be...
Image
I kid. :lol:
woodsbuggy
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed May 18, 2022 11:11 am

OJC, you don't know that there were several of these by the dunes and they did go out on the dunes a couple of times. One of the older guys that rented dune stuff had them and... occasionally... they suddenly appeared out on the close by section of the dunes. He passed away several years ago and I think most of the MIL stuff is now gone.

If you think I am overkilling this, you haven't seen what I have in the 30 or so years on the dunes. I have had several close calls mostly because people are only looking ahead and not to the side for example. People not posting a "spotter" when they are getting stupid in blind spots. Ambulances on the dunes or at entrances to the dunes. People landing on other people isn't that unusual either. Also they have kids in their Laps steering the toy while they worked the loud pedal. Hard to look around a kid sitting in your lap steering.

The speed limit on the dunes, if I remember correctly is 55 mph but, on the beach, it is only 25 mph and it is pushed a lot in both places. There is one place where the limit is higher, and I know of at least one death there too.

Liquor is not allowed on the dunes themselves but on the beach yes and in camp yes but every-so-often someone gets caught transporting it on the dunes.

Quite a few years ago one of the private entrances to the dunes a quad came at full speed out of the trail and hit a girl who was waiting with her group to go out on the dunes. It took 4 months before they were sure if she would live or not.

Lee

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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Tue May 24, 2022 6:10 pm

OrangeCrusher wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:42 am
Lee, I haven't been on in awhile because I've been work day and night to come up with a solution to your rollcage dillema. I'm not gonna say it's 100% all my idea but some thing along the lines of this. I superimposed the picture of you sitting in the buggy in this pic so you could see how well this design works and how simple it could be...
Image
I kid. :lol:
Ontos. Used by the USMC. Equipped with 6 105mm Recoilless rifles. Access to interior via rear double doors. Tiny little thing.

Still need 5-point harness and helmet. 8)
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue May 24, 2022 6:44 pm

There are times where having this stuff might be a good idea but there problem there would be stopping the want before the wish happened. It gets very frustrating out there at times and that is where the "wish" comes in.

Its been very noisy at times out on the dunes.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:26 pm

The body is back off the pan for some checking, fixing and figuring out some stuff. I did post on Bajaben's string to see if I could get some measurements from him as it looked like he was doing similar to what I am doing (thanks for putting up with me Ben).

What I later found out was that when I put the mounts under the front beam and lowered the beam down onto them the passenger's side jack stand had dropped one notch on the jackstand changing the angle of things. The angle measurements I got bothered me but today when I was checking things out again, I noticed the beam didn't look right so a bubble style of level was used, and it showed the problem. Jack the front up, lift the jack stand head up one notch and it is looking and now measures more level. the floor is level a bit less than 1° and the 3" body lift measures out to between 1° and 2 1/2°. The body still does not sit right on the body lift and the upper body flange does not form to the outside of the body but to the inside of the body, so a 90° tube tied to the body lift does not go nicely past the upper body line's flanges and has to be moved inboard somewhat.

I'll try to take some pix tomorrow as I want to get the fuel tank mount cut and supported both front and rear.

I was given some meds to help me with old age and one of the drugs went after my thumbs and wrists making them very tender to work with, so I am not sure if I am going to continue the build and sell it or just what. I'm a few months from being 80 so the + or - debate is going on with me most of the time.

Lee

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OrangeCrusher
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by OrangeCrusher » Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:14 am

I hear ya, Lee. That's what I've been yammering about as well. I'm only 48 this year but I have early onset arthritis along with spinal stenosis and a partially amputated foot. Most days it takes a good three hours before I can move at a respectable speed. I look pissed off most the time but only because I want to scream out loud due to the pain I'm enduring that no one can understand. I can't move without something hurting. And holding onto things is a lot of fun too. I'm not weak yet because of my age, but pain can take quite a lot of strength away. So I figure I might have one more big rebuild in me left. I'm gonna redo my baja. I can't wait. I'm not looking forward to getting too old to do this stuff and I feel I can sympathize with those thinking about hanging it up. None of us really want to, some of us just get a better hand in life or have taken better care of themselves. Younger guys may laugh but it'll happen to them too. lol It's just too bad we didn't have all this knowledge to use when our bodies were full of life. That's the cruel trick of life and something we need to overcome before humans can evolve to the next level. Youth is wasted on the foolish.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:59 am

Yeah, people don't think far enough ahead to consider what they do that can affect things later on in old age. A lot of what I have is genetically passed down then there is stupidly from childhood through to old age (I sometimes wonder if it is some kind of an infection from birth :? ) then there are the things that just happen without our help.

Anyway, back to the buggy.
IMG_2744 copy.jpg
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This is more or less where it is right now. The angle of the rear hoop is ~6° which I haven't figured out why... yet. Everything looks good but apparently it isn't! One spacer is missing right now but it is getting to be too complicated, so I have to figure that out while staying in line with the body lift (I think that the foot well in the pan has a lot to do with it). With the body off I can get a closer/better look when I don't have to bend over the body and reach down to look at things.

Lee
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