Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

[dustymojave]

OK.

NOW...I don't want ANYBODY getting the idea that I disapprove of roll cages being attached to the floor pan. It is VERY MUCH a proper way to mount a cage. The cage in my Baja Bug is mounted to the floor.

It's just that in this case with the much stouter body lift right beside the bases of the cage, it would be foolish to NOT use that strength.

When mounting to a sheet metal panel, a cage needs to have a large enough base plate with matching doubler under the panel. And bolting it is vastly better than welding it. If bolted, it MUST have a doubler on the back side.

So my '58 Baja has the B pillars bolted to the floor pan with a doubler underneath (note there is no body lift of .120 wall tube in my Baja). The C pillars are bolted to the rear package shelf with a doubler underneath which has a structural tube down and welded to the end of the engine/trans yoke and another tube from the torsion housing, and a mount off the side of the bottom of the C pillar which bolts through the inner fender panel to the rear bumper cage for a doubler. Meanwhile, the A pillars are welded at an angle to large curved base plates which are welded to the heater channel of the body shell just at the bend in the side of the floor. The A pillar load is distributed with a 1" tube parallel to the A pillar of the body and welded to the same large base plate. This location of the A pillars renders them more out of the way than most Bug roll cages. The triangle spreads the loads and the location is actually quite strong since my Bug has no rust at the base of the A pillars. If I wreck the body, it will be awful difficult to replace the body shell. But I haven't rolled that Bug since 2 weeks after I 1st got my driver's license in High School. Now I'm retired and 66 years old. And that rollover without a roll cage only cost me $55 to fix. I haven't rolled ANYthing since. So I'm not real worried.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Dusty, I have told you over 5 billion times now the cage will be attached to both the pan and the body lift! I am not going to make the cage removable as it would get to be too complicated and expensive especially with the need for "bridging". The bridging also helps the occupant(s) on side hits besides load transfers.

I may never get to drive it but I want who ever that gets it when I am gone to be safe.

This decision is only "ego" when it applies to the safety of others who may get it.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I wasn't going to post on this for a while but during the night I got an idea so a while ago I went out to see what would happen.

IMG_2715 copy.jpg

I taped the area where the body lift attaches to the pan. The tape was for better viewing in the garage but the pix don't show as well.

The whiter area is the upper body flange on the body, this is an area the cage should not be close to. Int the rest of the pix I used only 1/4" but it should be more as the pan does twist and the cage is supposed to help limit this. Bhe FG body has some, but not much strength to support the pan.

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The mockup angle piece came from a 3" length of this. I think it is 3" X 4" but I would have to go out and measure. The wall thickness is 1/8th inc.

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Notice that the vertical part is not 90 degrees but something more. The is because when bending material (the pan in this case) the tolerance designed into the drawing allows for it. Usually it is something like, the dimension +/- .01 and the angle is +/- 2°. Metric drawing would be much the same. What you are seeing is my matching draft angle of the pan. Since there are several bends the angles and dimensions can add up.

I put the "angle iron" and got nasty with it until I was pretty close to a good fit. There are 2 lines, I used a plumb bob to draw it's line on the floor. The second line is a 1/4" line for the mounting of the cage tube.

IMG_2716 copy.jpg

The square is the location of the 1 1/2" cage tube based on the above dimensions.

I'm still going to use the lower floor for support of the mounting area as as you can see the tube's diameter goes into the radius of the cage and I think I need some additional support there.

The bent-up angle will need some support to hold the tube in place and I was considering at the vertical ends of the tube but based on Dusty's posts I think I will move the side supports against the tube plus (maybe) have a short centering mount to stop any potential movement like I was planning on having when I wanted to have the cage removable. Not fully sure on that and some more changes may be made. Loading of the cage isn't just from the front and back or side to side but also downloads and maybe uploads on roll over and endos. Jumping a rig does give a lot of "Oh $#its" but only after the dam(n)age is done.

This body and pan combination are not designed for what I want them to do so that is also part of the picture.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Just got back in from probably waking the neighborhood straightening out the flanges on angle bracket and getting the angle of the body lift and the other bent area of the pan so the angle bracket doesn't rock. The bend angle worked out to be 5°. I haven't checked out the passenger side yet but I suspect it is pretty close to what I got tonight.

Again, the bracket material I think is SS and the thickness is .125. the next thing is the lower spacer that will connect to the footwell. Again, the 1 1/2" dia. cage tube is out farther than the bend down to the foot well is and it has a draft to it also.

https://weldingmagazine.com/can-you-wel ... ild-steel/

I might end up just getting some regular steel tube or angle iron instead of trying to go the direction I am in now. Again, this is a mockup for my idea of how and where the cage is to be mounted.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I went out and took the angle and spacer(s) to the other side of the pan. The fit is different but closer to 90° (I think). I need to do an angle check to be sure. Also the lower spacer had some flanges to close up the rectangular tube ends on it that need to be trimmed down a bit to be sure. Took a fall during the night and so being careful right now to see if any damage was done. I don't think so but being careful is important right now.

Lee

After making some noise in the garage it looks like both of the angle mounts are going to be very close to the same angle. I also found out that the passenger side has the same corner lift area where the spherical radius sits so the mounts themselves are going to have to sit a bit farther forward on the pan than I wanted. I wonder why the high spot did not show as well on the pass side as it did on the driver's side.

The same mystery for the stretch/wrinkle marks on the driver's side but not there on the passenger's side. The spherical radiuses I used on designs were deep draw formed but we were using vinyl covered AL.

Hmmm, interesting!

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Have you ever had one of those periods when the "do-do hits the fan" becomes the dominate thing in your life for a short period of time?

We bought a new hybrid vehicle mainly for the Mrs. but now she is in the hospital where they are trying to figure out what is going on with her heart. Not real serious but "could be" if not figured out.

Now her daughter (high level special needs) is also having problems so yesterday I spent most of the day with her and the Dr.s, nurses and techs trying to figure what she has wrong (not drinking enough water/not good liquids seems to be most of it but there is another test that will go on today).

Haven't had enough time to drive the hybrid and learn about it. In some ways they are like the "old stuff" but in other way it is the "new stuff" and way awkward compared to the old stuff (old stuff meaning they way of doing things compared to the "new stuff" meaning the now way of doing the old stuff). For example, instead of a shift handle you turn a knob (electric forward, reverse, park)! The e-brake is push or pull electric button. Electronic ignition button tied to the door lock key which is sensed electronic. And so it goes; still haven't figured out the travel distance for gas and electronic driving and that BS plus all the electronic BS to operate the background stuff. New-Be's are going to have it easier learn than us old antiquated "old farts". It does ride, steer and other things a bit differently also because of the engine battery and motor (I think) in the front and gas and engine in the rear so the weight balance in both the front and rear.

Also having to make a charging cord stand for a ceiling plug it (now I have to make 2 of them) to support the cord/stow it close for when in-house charging is needed.

Still playing with the cage on the black buggy but right now the buggy on the stands is being moved around mostly to make room changes in the garage for more room the hybrid and make the stands for the charging cord mount.

Other than that, it has been pretty quiet around here lately. Still check in here several times a day to see what is in the works.

Lee

[Max Welton]

My sister just bought a new Toyota Rav4 hybrid. She discovered that her electric power (in NH) costs 1/2 during off-peak hours. Imagine that.

Party on duffer!

Max

[dustymojave]

Hope everything comes out OK for your wife and stepdaughter Lee.

As to electric cars...
They have a lot of potential, Could be cool. But they come with a myriad of problems that us ol' farts never had to deal with before. If you're talking about charging cord stands, yours must be a plug-in hybrid. Now when rolling black outs come around this summer and you have no A/C for your house and no power for anything else, including charging your car, don't come asking us why...And don't ask why the re-sale price of a Tesla plummets like a rock from a cliff face, while the re-sale value of a 1960s VW Bug continues to climb like a mountain goat...Bet there will soon be times you'll wish you still had your Model A Coupe.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Hope everything comes out OK for your wife and stepdaughter Lee.

As to electric cars...
They have a lot of potential, Could be cool. But they come with a myriad of problems that us ol' farts never had to deal with before. If you're talking about charging cord stands, yours must be a plug-in hybrid. Now when rolling black outs come around this summer and you have no A/C for your house and no power for anything else, including charging your car, don't come asking us why...And don't ask why the re-sale price of a Tesla plummets like a rock from a cliff face, while the re-sale value of a 1960s VW Bug continues to climb like a mountain goat...Bet there will soon be times you'll wish you still had your Model A Coupe.

The wife comes home today or tomorrow then in six weeks she has to have the shock treatment for her heart that is assuming everything else goes right. It is the part of the heart that controls the rhythm of the heart that is not right plus the found a small blood clot in the heart also which may or may not be part of the problem with the rhythm thing. Her daughter is better, but they still don't know what is going on. Spending a lot of time helping or visiting the two of them.

We bought a hybrid Ford Escape which seems to have a fairly good rep... so far. Yeah, it has a plugin door in the front fender and a fuel door at the rear fender. I have been making stands for the electric cords' storage and protection for the house and one for down south with that one being a "break-down" version for transport and storage. We haven't driven it much as there has been a lot of "whoof" going on. It seems to be OK when being driven... just taking some getting used to the new way some things are being done but... a trip down to the dunes (400 miles one way) will tell
a lot more about it.

leecar02 copy.jpg

I didn't have a camera back then, so I didn't take pix of my cars then (I have had a lot of them too). I bought this from a co-worker then did a 3-way trade for the coupe I had wanted since high school. I didn't want to get rid of it but there were some things going on back then made it necessary to save it by selling it. People can't leave other people's things alone back then and especially now. Oh, the guy who got the roadster (a Sailor off one of the Naval ships in port) wrecked it that evening too. He and two other guys were "cruising" along in it on one of the roads that is at the end of a long low spot when the wind came up and lifted the roadster off the ground and flipped it. One guy got a broken back out of it.

There has been one really nice dune buggy for sale around here lately and another couple of "a lot of work" buggies for sale too.

My blue one is still working (need the brakes to be blead) and the black one still requires working on, so it keeps me busy and that is good too.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Wife came home early this afternoon just after I posted. She has to go back in 6 weeks.

I did get some work done in the garage.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Back to the black buggy.

One thing I didn't mention outright when Dusty and I were talking about the cage, but I think I did mention it when using the plum-bob to get a draft measurement which I didn't say why I was doing it. When forming something in a mold, metal or other materials, there is no straight up and down in an enclosed mold as there has to be a "draft angle" involved so you can get the part out of the mold, usually, it is 1 or 2 degrees away from the mold wall.

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062 (2).JPG

This should give an idea of how the top of the body is formed to the inside of the body

Dune Buggy rebuild (5).jpg

This is a more normal dune buggy body design. Notice that the top of the sidewall is bent outward joining the fenders rather than how they are on the black buggy forming only a C" shaped strengthening flange of the top of the body. If you add a draft angle and a height dimension to the body dropping the plum-bob down, you get a straight line that is inboard of the pan's body mount area then exacerbated by the 3" body lift area.

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If you take the warping of the body mounting area from when I brought the body home, and it was too soon from the mold that it warped, and add to that the draft angle the cage tube ended up here... on a radius which is not good as the outside of the bend the metal has stretched and the inside of the bend the metal has compressed so you aren't getting full use out of the area. Adding some dimension distance from the upper body "C-shaped" stiffening flange things got worse.

Mounting only to the body lift, especially in this case where there is no real body strength to support the body lift from even small twisting, using only metal mounts to the body lift doesn't seem to work on a roll over or especially on an "endo" where the loading can either be first to the front then to the rear of the cage or, as I have seen, only onto the rear hoop of the cage.

cagesamplesW[1].jpg

Dusty posted this years ago and even here I can see +'s combined with -'s.

Anyway, still arguing with myself.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

After arguing with myself since the last post I think I am going to pull the body back off along with the body lift (I also have some weld grinding to do where the nose of the 6-rib comes through it) so I can get some good shape and measurements of the angles and radiuses of the area.

Playing around with it (off and on) the not fully formed area on the driver's side pan seems to be at the transition part of the lower floor area and the rear radius of the pan's forming. Playing with the area yesterday using a section of 1 1/2" tube I used for the mockup, trying to find out the minimum height of the cross-piece of the rear hoop, the area on the floor to be used comes in at/too close to a "not good" location (a multiple radius situation which means the metal is stretched and compressed in that area.

I also want to know just how close or not close the two sides of the pan are in the area to be used for the cage. Also, the deformation of the body's mounting area (because it was too soon out of the mold and deformed in the cold weather in the Cascade Mountain passes in the 200+ mile trip on an open trailer in the spring. I just went out and measured and the sides of the body are very close to 0° but there is a slight bend in it probably caused by the body mounting flanges getting deformed towards the center of the body... another problem in the mix.

Looking at Dusty's cage pix (next post up) and since I am concerned about "endo's" (when I first got into the sand thing, I saw more than one or two of them being brought into camp with the cage deformed. when I asked I pretty much got the same answers... Endo's from jumping the buggies mostly on the beach, that and my almost endo (front wheel stand) when coming down a dune and hitting some tall "ripples" in the sand at the bottom and bouncing over them because the air-shocks were pumped up too much (no spring as they were almost solid suspension wise but they had come with the buggy and I didn't realize that they were not a good idea. There are gas filled type of "air shock" and there is the type, that you can add a minimal or heavy amount of air to, which you might see in a truck to add to the load limit [can be very dangerous] ability; mine were the latter not the former). This is why I did some asking around to people who really knew things and learned to reset the preload in the rear of the buggy. I am now wondering if the sample 2 or sample 3 might be the best way to go assuming someone in the future gets and finishes the buggy and tries the jumping thing. In my buggy, even without the engine in the rear there is almost no real weight in the front of the buggy. As it is, with the body off I can lift the front end off their jack stands, by my antique self, with no problems to back or whatever.

Lee

[OrangeCrusher]

Is there a reason not to make that area of the sill wider so it will catch the bottom of the tube? Seems like if you box it in underneath the "top" with some gussets you could probably have a big wide landing pad for that down tube to distribute pressure across the floor. I mean eventually your gonna run into lighter gage metal anyway you do it. I'm not an engineer (thank god) but I would hope if there was a raised area under that tube that equaled four times the surface area of the end of that tube it would not want to punch a hole through the floor. The tube could also get some gussets around it's base circumference if you're concerned about angular loads.

[OrangeCrusher]

... but then that's why you triangulate

[Ol'fogasaurus]

DSC00647 (2) copy.jpg

A pan build can go from this...

passenger's side pan half 006.jpg

... to new pan halves

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... to a 3" body lift...

black buggy rebuild 3-20-08 007 (2).jpg

... to a 1" square tube as a Doubler in the bottom of the body mount area but you are dealing with a lot of bending of thick (body lift and Doubler) and thin materials (the pan's thin-walled mounting flanges) clamped together with 9 bolts per side; 2 in front and 4 in the rear. Is there strength... yes but when you tie a V6 water cooled engine and 009 trans in the rear things can change when out on the sand. Since there isn't a body with a top *stock bug" but a FG open body some additional strength is lost, e.g., the roof for spreading loads around.

The cage can do part of that if done correctly but since the VW pan is a "Tunnel" style of pan it does need the top of the body to help reduce "racking". It is more complicated than just this.

Oh, and I retired 20+ years ago with a "tech designer 6 rating. I didn't have enough schooling to get to the next range of being a licensed technician.

Lee

Some additional info: With the body's mounting flanges not fitting right on the pan and the upper body flange not facing out but in it makes the using of the body bolts and body lift less usable for several reasons including the cage having to sit more inside the body than the mounting surface body to pan is designed for.

I am not sure if you can get DOM square or rectangular tube like you can round tube (DOM means "drawn over mandrel" e.g., no seams. I tried to find out by doing a search and could only find round DOM tube). There are three places for the seam to be done during forming. One is in the middle of the long side of the tube, another is halfway above/below the center of the long side of the tube, or the seam could be at the top of the tube, the 1" or 1 1/2" area. Drilling the 9 holes in the seams are not good so the top/bottom of the tube is not usable.

When using 2 bolts through the seam in the middle then bolting a flange through the seam, even if using a small tube for the bolt to go through can reduce the strength of the seam if you only plan on two bolts on each side of the cage tube. If you were planning on 4 bolts, then the other seam location is then a problem. This option then would be to weld the mount to the body lift but then you would have to deal with downloading of the cage on the mount assuming it isn't contacting the floor also which then means end capping the mount and maybe adding some horizontal supports for the tube also or... making the tube attach into a solid mount then bolt it in place. From what I have seen done to cages from roll-overs and endos the twisting and uneven side and fore and aft loading is going to put a lot of stress into things.

I look at things from a "what if"/"cause and effect" viewpoint as that was one of my jobs when I was working and checking others work. Is is overkill, probably unless it does protect someone if or when it does happen.

Lee