Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
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ninelives17
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
Glad to hear you got it back together.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
Trying to finish up the beam build. Here is where I currently at:
On the front beam I was working with I could not get the steering box to lock in tightly so playing around with it I finally discovered that there was some welding done where the beam's under piece was welded to the beam rather than being clamped in place by what is in the upper picture. The existing beam is not going to be used because of it.
The bottom pix is of a spare clamp I had that I finally got cleaned up in the blast cabinet. Took two long tried to get all the what ever was on it sinside and out. The same with the bolts and locking clamps.
This is part of the problem as the body I have's front hood section is shaped wrong for the arch here even with the 3" body lift. Also, since I am dealing with a sand rail hydraulic clutch and break setup the pedal's sit higher and the height here and the connection to the front hoop will be too low hence in the way so I will have to make a new design to meet both requirements.
These are the parts I will be using. Last time I made a doubler but this time I am going to try the thick washers but on both sides of the shock tower so support the post.
I think am also going to make a small change to the shock tower stiffener at the bottom so the beam's new upper support will fit in place.
Lee
On the front beam I was working with I could not get the steering box to lock in tightly so playing around with it I finally discovered that there was some welding done where the beam's under piece was welded to the beam rather than being clamped in place by what is in the upper picture. The existing beam is not going to be used because of it.
The bottom pix is of a spare clamp I had that I finally got cleaned up in the blast cabinet. Took two long tried to get all the what ever was on it sinside and out. The same with the bolts and locking clamps.
This is part of the problem as the body I have's front hood section is shaped wrong for the arch here even with the 3" body lift. Also, since I am dealing with a sand rail hydraulic clutch and break setup the pedal's sit higher and the height here and the connection to the front hoop will be too low hence in the way so I will have to make a new design to meet both requirements.
These are the parts I will be using. Last time I made a doubler but this time I am going to try the thick washers but on both sides of the shock tower so support the post.
I think am also going to make a small change to the shock tower stiffener at the bottom so the beam's new upper support will fit in place.
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
Had a long night last night so I did a lot of thinking on what to do with the replacement beam. About 5:00 am it came to me that since I use Thing spindles and BJs I probably don't need to add the stops but then, about 45 minutes of joy later, I got thinking about "no-see-ums" which changed my joy on the beam build.
For those who don't know the term it is about what it says it is... something you don't/can't see until it is too late. The first time was in Florence OR where I kept running into holes in the sand where someone had gotten stuck and had dug the sand away until they were sitting on the frame. They got out and loosely filled the hole then I ran into it and sank immediately down to the pan. I think I hit at least three of them that day.
The other type I ran into was in a dirt area in the soft sand in the North Bend/Coos Bay area of the southern Oregon dunes. I and another guy in his rail came over a small rise in the dirt only to find that the rain storm had washed out a small in width but deep creek across the trail which I couldn't stop in time so I hit (we weren't going that fast either) it. I hit so hard that the shocks jammed and we couldn't get them loose. I finally limped back to camp doing damage to the body and it took three of us quite a while to get the one side broken free.
I changed shocks which has helped but the need for the stops is still there.
This is the way a standard bug ball joint and spindle mount.
This is the way a ball joint is using a Thing spindle.
The inside of the two spindles.
The spindles comparison. Notice that the Thing spindle sits lower so you get about a 2" raise in the front end. Thing spindles are hard to find and expensive. So is the adjuster for the upper BJ and is really expensive so I hear. I just did an online check and a Thing beam is close to $3000.
If you look at the stock BJ lower BJ notice that it is pressed in the lower arm from the top of the arm and the spindle connects to the BJ that is facing up. What this allows is the lower BJ to be pulled up and out of the lower arm in a hard hit. This is one of a couple of reasons that the stops should be used if you go off-road.
The Thing spindle mounts facing down and the spindle assy fits under the lower arm negating the problem of pulling the BJ out, but... the problems with the "no-see-ums" and the shocks (et al) is still there.
Can the K&L beam replace the BJ beam? In most cases yes and can be done any of two different ways. Since the spacing of the two tubes in both styles of beams is different you would have to modify the beam mount to change the mount for the upgrade.
The other way is to change part of the mount which is fairly easy to do assuming you can find the two pieces necessary.
Carefully remove the old mount leaving the bottom piece in place.
Clean up the replacement mount then carefully align it to the old location then weld it in place.
If you are running a glass body like mine is or even a Baja where the front of the pan is not supported by the body you need to add the beam supports like shown in the pix. The sides of the beam can twist the pan's head like the "X" shows so the supports that go to the firewall are supposed to help support them. With a glass buggy there needs to be some additional work.
Lee
For those who don't know the term it is about what it says it is... something you don't/can't see until it is too late. The first time was in Florence OR where I kept running into holes in the sand where someone had gotten stuck and had dug the sand away until they were sitting on the frame. They got out and loosely filled the hole then I ran into it and sank immediately down to the pan. I think I hit at least three of them that day.
The other type I ran into was in a dirt area in the soft sand in the North Bend/Coos Bay area of the southern Oregon dunes. I and another guy in his rail came over a small rise in the dirt only to find that the rain storm had washed out a small in width but deep creek across the trail which I couldn't stop in time so I hit (we weren't going that fast either) it. I hit so hard that the shocks jammed and we couldn't get them loose. I finally limped back to camp doing damage to the body and it took three of us quite a while to get the one side broken free.
I changed shocks which has helped but the need for the stops is still there.
This is the way a standard bug ball joint and spindle mount.
This is the way a ball joint is using a Thing spindle.
The inside of the two spindles.
The spindles comparison. Notice that the Thing spindle sits lower so you get about a 2" raise in the front end. Thing spindles are hard to find and expensive. So is the adjuster for the upper BJ and is really expensive so I hear. I just did an online check and a Thing beam is close to $3000.
If you look at the stock BJ lower BJ notice that it is pressed in the lower arm from the top of the arm and the spindle connects to the BJ that is facing up. What this allows is the lower BJ to be pulled up and out of the lower arm in a hard hit. This is one of a couple of reasons that the stops should be used if you go off-road.
The Thing spindle mounts facing down and the spindle assy fits under the lower arm negating the problem of pulling the BJ out, but... the problems with the "no-see-ums" and the shocks (et al) is still there.
Can the K&L beam replace the BJ beam? In most cases yes and can be done any of two different ways. Since the spacing of the two tubes in both styles of beams is different you would have to modify the beam mount to change the mount for the upgrade.
The other way is to change part of the mount which is fairly easy to do assuming you can find the two pieces necessary.
Carefully remove the old mount leaving the bottom piece in place.
Clean up the replacement mount then carefully align it to the old location then weld it in place.
If you are running a glass body like mine is or even a Baja where the front of the pan is not supported by the body you need to add the beam supports like shown in the pix. The sides of the beam can twist the pan's head like the "X" shows so the supports that go to the firewall are supposed to help support them. With a glass buggy there needs to be some additional work.
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
I'm not posting for (hopefully) what may be a week or two due to I need to put the body on the pan w/o wheels and maybe mounts as I need some more information before I can go ahead on the beam. Part of the delay is since the body and pan have to be moved outside to be re-joined; we are in the rainy season here on the upper left coast so I will have to wait and do some other things.
This notch in the buggy is the area I am going to be working in... not only for steering (been removed from the beam because some damage done years ago) but for the upper beam end clamp supports. The shared area on the beam that the steering box and the upper beam support share needs to be defined better than the current beam setup will allow.
Updates should come before too long as I am going to have to remake the shape the upper beam supports limiting tubes before I get back into the changes that I think will be needed.
Lee
This notch in the buggy is the area I am going to be working in... not only for steering (been removed from the beam because some damage done years ago) but for the upper beam end clamp supports. The shared area on the beam that the steering box and the upper beam support share needs to be defined better than the current beam setup will allow.
Updates should come before too long as I am going to have to remake the shape the upper beam supports limiting tubes before I get back into the changes that I think will be needed.
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
Went out in the garage for a short time today and, after deciding that the stops should be used, I started marking the location.
Previously I found a center point and built a doubler for the through hole for the stop post.
Did it work... yes! I did add some back up pieces to the stop post in-case of a hard hit with potential damage.
This time I attacked it a bit differently. I put the arms in place along with the spindle to get a rough idea of the location. The nuts are on there just to keep the spindle from dropping off which it tried to do several times. I laid the washer in the general area I thought would be used, then, backed up with a magnet I still the post up. I then put the arced arms against the upper and lower beam arms held in place with a magnet. This gave me the usable location w/o having to modify the arced arms for fit.
This should give you a rough idea of where the post will go. Also notice how close it is to the radius of the shock tower. The top side will be pushed towards the rear while the underside of the post will be pushed forward so the ends of the washer being used as a doubler will have to be bent around the radius for both the top and the underside of the shock tower. There will be post supports similar to what I did before on the top side but I don't think I should need it for the bottom side... I hope!
Lee
Previously I found a center point and built a doubler for the through hole for the stop post.
Did it work... yes! I did add some back up pieces to the stop post in-case of a hard hit with potential damage.
This time I attacked it a bit differently. I put the arms in place along with the spindle to get a rough idea of the location. The nuts are on there just to keep the spindle from dropping off which it tried to do several times. I laid the washer in the general area I thought would be used, then, backed up with a magnet I still the post up. I then put the arced arms against the upper and lower beam arms held in place with a magnet. This gave me the usable location w/o having to modify the arced arms for fit.
This should give you a rough idea of where the post will go. Also notice how close it is to the radius of the shock tower. The top side will be pushed towards the rear while the underside of the post will be pushed forward so the ends of the washer being used as a doubler will have to be bent around the radius for both the top and the underside of the shock tower. There will be post supports similar to what I did before on the top side but I don't think I should need it for the bottom side... I hope!
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
I am going to put the update of adding the Thing parts to the beam (as some are so rare) due to a reminder of some things that happened several years ago. I will use the beam for mockup but in a bare condition with the exception of adding the steering box so the fit of the upper beam supports can be fitted.
Also, it is so cold and damp out in the garage right now, with all the storm fronts coming through, that it is hard to safely hold onto things at times.
Sorry folks!
Lee
Also, it is so cold and damp out in the garage right now, with all the storm fronts coming through, that it is hard to safely hold onto things at times.
Sorry folks!
Lee
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ninelives17
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:27 am
Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
Good things come to those who wait.
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Ol'fogasaurus
- Posts: 17881
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Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
Thanks ninelives.
I just didn't want to leave things up-in-the-air (I was afraid that some might think I was teasing) as I had just restarted a build then stopped. Since the beam I have in my black buggy was messed up where the steering box mount sits making it hard to work with I think using this one as is then upgrading it later when things get more serious.
Sorry!
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
- Posts: 17881
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Basic Off-road Ball-Joint Beam rebuild PT 2 starts on p. 13
I took the old beam off my buggy pan as the steering and suspension was locked in place. It turned out that the 4 BJs were frozen and would not work with the steering box or on the bench which was another part of the problem.
Add to that the steering box would not set correctly in place so the beam support on the driver's side did not fit correctly. I thought the beam had been welded up as that was what it felt like as it was so hard to see on the buggy with the steering in place. It turned out that the steering box locating pieces on beam itself was OK, it was the lower clamp that was bad. You can barely see it in this pix but it was damaged so by using a different lower clamp the same steering box was then located OK.
This shows the box in place, the shock towers tacked in place and the commercial upper beam support clamp more-or-less in place where it would have worked before. One less thing to worry about.
The upper beam support on each side has to be custom made as the hood on my buggy is so flat even with the body sitting on a custom 3" body lift. This is the commercial unit that won't work.
I have an old EMPI catalog from 2016 so I did some digging in it to find if parts I need are available. Got some part numbers and I think they are still available from EMPI and probably else where.
New clamps for the upper beam support to the beam, I will need a quantity of 4: part number 3161.
If you look closely at the steering box in the last two pix you will see a double universal shaft attached to the steering box. It is from a Type 1 71 _ 74 Super Beetle; part number 98-4151B.
To adapt the universal to a steering shaft the adapter to weld into the shaft is: part number 17-2580 (33 3/4 spline 3/4" - 36 spline).
I'm still putting off the suspension stops for a while but the torsion adjuster should go in place before too long. New grub screws are part number 98-4166-B and the nut for it is 98-4165-B.
Lee
Add to that the steering box would not set correctly in place so the beam support on the driver's side did not fit correctly. I thought the beam had been welded up as that was what it felt like as it was so hard to see on the buggy with the steering in place. It turned out that the steering box locating pieces on beam itself was OK, it was the lower clamp that was bad. You can barely see it in this pix but it was damaged so by using a different lower clamp the same steering box was then located OK.
This shows the box in place, the shock towers tacked in place and the commercial upper beam support clamp more-or-less in place where it would have worked before. One less thing to worry about.
The upper beam support on each side has to be custom made as the hood on my buggy is so flat even with the body sitting on a custom 3" body lift. This is the commercial unit that won't work.
I have an old EMPI catalog from 2016 so I did some digging in it to find if parts I need are available. Got some part numbers and I think they are still available from EMPI and probably else where.
New clamps for the upper beam support to the beam, I will need a quantity of 4: part number 3161.
If you look closely at the steering box in the last two pix you will see a double universal shaft attached to the steering box. It is from a Type 1 71 _ 74 Super Beetle; part number 98-4151B.
To adapt the universal to a steering shaft the adapter to weld into the shaft is: part number 17-2580 (33 3/4 spline 3/4" - 36 spline).
I'm still putting off the suspension stops for a while but the torsion adjuster should go in place before too long. New grub screws are part number 98-4166-B and the nut for it is 98-4165-B.
Lee
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