Crank trigger ignition

[Krochus]

So how do you tune per cylinder if you don't know the afr???? I guess EGT would possibly work......
Although wasted spark has worked great for me but then maybe my engine isn't tuned that well either...

Not speaking for anything but my system even if you knew the individual cylinder fuel trims you don’t have the software capabilities to trim fuel and spark on a cylinder by cylinder basis.

You’ve mentioned 4 widebands on several replies to different threads now. I think you are massively overthinking this. Sequential is just like a carb, batch fire or any other fuel system mankind has yet developed. You assume your injectors and plugs start in good condition per cylinder and if it changes on the wideband at some point you know something is wrong. All sequential gets you on a street car is you aren’t squirting fuel ontop of a closed intake valve so it’s a little more precise at part throttle.

[Chip Birks]

Sequential allows you to tune more than just individual cylinder trims. You can also mess with injection timing so that it fires at the most efficient time. Only need one wideband to see changes. Egt is another nice but not needed tool. Its there to build trends and watch for oddities. I went to my new monster injectors because I had a cold cylinder, was hoping that it was just a clogged injector. In the end, i saw no improvement, i think something else is wrong. Could be the sensor too though.

[Chip Birks]

So how do you tune per cylinder if you don't know the afr???? I guess EGT would possibly work......
Although wasted spark has worked great for me but then maybe my engine isn't tuned that well either...

Not speaking for anything but my system even if you knew the individual cylinder fuel trims you don’t have the software capabilities to trim fuel and spark on a cylinder by cylinder basis.

You’ve mentioned 4 widebands on several replies to different threads now...

Mine absolutely has the software to trim all 4 cylinders, fuel and spark.

[Clonebug]

So how do you tune per cylinder if you don't know the afr???? I guess EGT would possibly work......
Although wasted spark has worked great for me but then maybe my engine isn't tuned that well either...

Not speaking for anything but my system even if you knew the individual cylinder fuel trims you don’t have the software capabilities to trim fuel and spark on a cylinder by cylinder basis.

You’ve mentioned 4 widebands on several replies to different threads now. I think you are massively overthinking this. Sequential is just like a carb, batch fire or any other fuel system mankind has yet developed. You assume your injectors and plugs start in good condition per cylinder and if it changes on the wideband at some point you know something is wrong. All sequential gets you on a street car is you aren’t squirting fuel ontop of a closed intake valve so it’s a little more precise at part throttle.

Tunerstudio is capable of individual tabs for each cylinder so you now have to create four maps of VE and four for Ignition.
That's not something a Newbie into Fuel Injection really should be messing with when first trying to get a new install going. On top of that you would probably need a standard single VE map and Ignition map to get the engine started and make sure it runs well or if brand new to break it in.
Mario has been doing Fuel Injection for about 17 years and Chip has been into it almost as long. They are quite intimate with MS and TS and can whip through all the tabs.
My point was and is that while a Minicam Sync is a nice addition it is not needed and can be added later once you have gotten the engine running good.
If only trying to get the most boost and performance out of an engine it is not a priority but will go a long way for the Geek factor......

For someone like Chip with monster injectors I guess I now can see the advantage but with only one O2 sensor it must take a while to build all the separate VE maps and tweak them.
Mario has his set up with Five O2 sensors and four EGT sensors and that is why I assumed it was required to tune........

I'm curious how Autotune would work with tuning four VE tables.....it must be something like my dual tables for extending the VE out to double the bins.


So as for SpeedyEFI......Doesn't that also use TunerStudio for tuning???
Or does it have it's own software package?????

[Chip Birks]

I have 5 o2, and 4 egt as well. Though i stopped looking at the 4 extra o2 once the developer told me that i make too much boost and he can't make them compensate for it. I bought an AEM 4ch unit to replace it with when i get time. You don't actually have 4 ve tables and 4 spark maps. You can have trim tables for each one, but they still refer to the original ve table and then add or remove fuel/timing based on what you want it to do. I haven't spent much time messing with mine, since all of my 4ch wideband use has been r&d for someone else, and not really of any real benefit to me. The data was never accurate enough to trust. So #5 has pretty much always been in charge of fueling.

[Krochus]

For ignition only there would be no point to adding a cam sync as there’s no real disadvantage to wasted or semi wasted spark over a true sequential COP setup.

It would be advantageous if you have the ability to run sequential injection and a requirement to do so.

[Clonebug]

I have 5 o2, and 4 egt as well. Though i stopped looking at the 4 extra o2 once the developer told me that i make too much boost and he can't make them compensate for it. I bought an AEM 4ch unit to replace it with when i get time. You don't actually have 4 ve tables and 4 spark maps. You can have trim tables for each one, but they still refer to the original ve table and then add or remove fuel/timing based on what you want it to do. I haven't spent much time messing with mine, since all of my 4ch wideband use has been r&d for someone else, and not really of any real benefit to me. The data was never accurate enough to trust. So #5 has pretty much always been in charge of fueling.

So with the trim tables you just add or subtract a percentage to get it to do what???
What are you trying to equalize??
Pulse width should the same on all and flow should also be the same if you have the high flow Injectors that come with the documentation on flow for each one. Doesn't ID supply a graph for deadtime and flow???

Wouldn't the four O2 sensors work from idle to 100 kpa??? Isn't that the area that would most benefit from the sequential injection and timing????
From what I gather it will help at idle to a noticeable degree.

Full throttle and full boost would be just throwing enough fuel at it so it doesn't go lean.......at least for us Neanderthals of the engine world......

[GARRICK.CLARK1]

Quick question Guys.
Should I be reading the Micro squirt Hardware instruction manual from James Murray.
Does it related to Mario's kit.

[Chip Birks]

Quick question Guys.
Should I be reading the Micro squirt Hardware instruction manual from James Murray.
Does it related to Mario's kit.

Yes

[GARRICK.CLARK1]

Ok Thanks Chip.
I'm just doing a bit of pre wiring planning. I have my injection pump already wired, and in use with my blow through carb set up. Its a big psi pump that flows into an injection to carb pressure reg. I'll have to replace this when the time comes to an injection pressure reg as I think the two regs are very different. The pump is wired into a relay and only kicks in when the alternator light goes out. I'm hoping not to have to redo a lot of the current wiring.

[Clonebug]

The fuel pump needs to cycle as soon as the key turns on to pressurize the system and also prime the engine for start......depending on how you have it set up in the "Startup/Idle" tab.

When you hook the fuel pump signal/power wire from the ECU to the FP relay it should take care of that for you.
If you are using the Relay board then you just kook up the FP power wire to the Relay board.....Either way works.

[GARRICK.CLARK1]

Ok Thanks. So when I get this kit ,does the wiring harness have a pinned connector on 1 end and a bunch of coloured wires on the other, or is the harness a plug and play apart from wiring the live and earths.

I'm thinking of fitting the micro squirt box to a piece of Plywood. Fitted behind the fire wall on the bug.In the neatest way I can. I'm expecting to have the long harness excess wiring coiled up neat and sitting on the flat part of the luggage area.

Wires to the engine through a grommeted hole in the fire wall linking up to the crank trigger/ map sensor/coil etc.

Dizzy removed and hole plugged.
I don't no what I'm going to come across when doing the install so any HOW TO'S /I DID IT THIS WAY would be great to read/see.

New coil on fan housing .

Type 4 specific 36 to 1 fitted. Hopefully the CSP pulley wont give any refit issues.
My AFR measuring system is a standalone one . A PLX kit.
Can I leave this as it is or does it need to be wired into the micro squirt

[Clonebug]

What might be a way to go for you is to get a short three or four foot harness out of the ECU and connect those wires to some terminal strips that will always be connected. Then you can either make or buy a harness with the correct sensor and injector connectors on one end and nothing on the other. Get them in 8 ft or 12 ft lengths and once installed and routed you can cut to length and connect to the matching terminal for easy tracing and adding and removing.
Mario has a good example of how his Harness is made in the back of his Bug.......It's a lot more wiring than any of us have or need but then he is the test and tuner for all his stuff also.
He has some great ideas in wiring since he is pretty well a Professional in the trade with all his work experience and knows all the cool stuff to use.
Take a look at other wiring harnesses and use the parts that work for you and ignore the parts you don't like.
There are many ways to accomplish the same thing.....what works for me might not work for you but you could easily modify it to fit your needs.

This is USA supply but I'm sure you could find something like this in your area....

https://www.amazon.com/electrical-termi ... l%20blocks

https://www.wiringproducts.com/power-di ... ion-blocks

I used the first and second images shown in my build but you might want to use something else that would work better for you.
Just spend a little time planning it out and leave room for expansion.....you know you will add other things as you go.

Here is a pic of Mario's back seat....hopefully he won't mind if I post it.





I found through the years that what was good one year could be improved the next year or simplified the year after.

I have rewired my buggy almost every time I pull it down for the winter. I find something I can do better....or simpler or cleaner.
Start collecting wire colors.....you will need them.

I can't say enough good about Mario's harness....It is color coded to his standard and all his harnesses are wired the same color wise for ease of troubleshooting and connecting. You even get a printed color sheet with all the wire colors marked for installation. It really makes it almost plug and play.
Any issue I usually had on startup was hooking up a wire on the relay to the wrong terminal. Rechecking the colors according to my pictures or to his sheet fixed the non start issue.
Note that he has each line in its own sleeve so you can keep track of which run is which. All ground wires are black so you have to hook those in the right connection too.

The PLX will have an Analog (Gray) wire that can be hooked to the correct ECU input terminal for logging and Autotune.

[MarioVelotta]

Quick question Guys.
Should I be reading the Micro squirt Hardware instruction manual from James Murray.
Does it related to Mario's kit.

Yes

You can find current manuals here -http://thedubshop.com/megasquirt-2-ms2- ... rt-module/

This is the one you will want to use - http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsqu ... re-3.4.pdf

[MarioVelotta]

So with the trim tables you just add or subtract a percentage to get it to do what???
What are you trying to equalize??
Pulse width should the same on all and flow should also be the same if you have the high flow Injectors that come with the documentation on flow for each one. Doesn't ID supply a graph for deadtime and flow???

Well, on my 1600 with ITB's I had a swing of 20% fuel between cylinders, TWENTY. One hole would be 12:1 and another 15:1. My 5th 02 sensor would be reporting a mixture of 13:1 from the whole engine but that was just an average of all the cylinders.

Here is an example, untrimmed AFRs on the bottom line without any correction from my 02 input. Graph 4 and 5

AFR Untrimmed.png

-

Here is an example with 02 corrections per 02 on each cylinder. Graph 4 and 5

AFR Corrections 1.png