30+ year old bus engine!

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Here's some background as I know it. I found an old VW repair shop this winter and just now was able to meet the old mechanic. We had a discussion regarding the 69 and 70 rust bucket busses on the property and he decided he'd part with the 70. HIS story is that the bus "has been there for forty years" and "only has 53k on the drivetrain"as evidenced by the odometer. I gently tried to tell him that there was no case # so it couldn't possibly be the stock engine but he wouldn't listen. There was barely a tick when I checked for end play so I decided to take a gamble and buy the piece-o-crap. On a side note, I texted the wife as to what I was bringing home (pussy way out fur sure) and her response was "GREAAAAAAAAAT"! Then I got the BIG CHILL when I got home. I'm sure you can all relate! Next, I finally got smart and looked at the license plate......1983 was the last registration sticker. HELLO, that made more sense......so 153k on the body and most likely the trans by how much goop is on it. So now to the engine:

No case # below the generator pedestal or beside it!
It is dual relief!
It does have 8mm head and oil pump studs.
I does not say AS 41 or 21 on it.
It is a VW case!
Left half raised type says: 43 VW 211.101.101D
Right side says: 40 VW 211.101.102D
Both sides have a stamp of 113P just above the raised type!
It does not has the ribs on the right rear case half.
It does have the type III oil filler block off plate!

Can anyone add info to this? Especially what the 113P means? What alloy are we talking about here? Year and country of manufacture?

Popped the valve covers off and they are pristine and without sludge. Also feel free to speculate as to why this thing sat there for so many years as the old gent could not give me the story. I do have the Idaho title which was issued in 1980 so I thought I'd make an attempt to see if the prior owner is still kickin'. Hopefully his memory isn't as rusty as the bus!

THOUGHTS????????

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FOUND HIM!!! Found the prior owner but could only leave messages. He's a chemistry professor at Bucknell University in PA so I suspect I will obtain some reliable information when we do make contact. Can't wait to find out why is was left there!

[Marc]

...Both sides have a stamp of 113P just above the raised type!
It does not has the ribs on the right rear case half.
It does have the type III oil filler block off plate!

The stamped-in 113P is a new one on me also. 211 casting numbers aren't uncommon to find on other cases, it denotes the presence of the 3-point rear mount bosses. It may have been originally a Type III case that's had a dipstick tube put in, if so the numbers will be found stamped in alongside the parting line on the top. No numbers would make it an early "universal replacement" case, cast c1970 - no ribs and dual-relief would be consistent with that, the only aberration is the 8mm head studs but they could've been retrofitted at any time...or the castings might've been on the shelf for a few years before the finish machinework was done. Most factory exchange engines built with new cases were at least stamped with a codeletter ("B" for a 1600SP for example) and a FX symbol (VW emblem encircled by two arrows) and got the serial number of the failed case they replaced stamped in locally by the VW area rep, but some did escape with no markings. Again, the 113P puzzles me - I've never seen that (but then again I've never looked for it either).

I would consider this case to be the equal of an OEM `70 case in all respects, with the added improvement of the 8mm studs. One tell you might look for is the length of the front-upper stud on #3 - if it was factory (or factory exchange) installed the insert will be deep in the case and the stud will be as long as the eight lowers. Of course an aftermarket machinist could've also gone to that trouble, but many don't - if the insert is flush with the case it's not a factory job.

The alloy is "OK" for a stock-performance application. Not quite as good as that in the "ribbed" cases, but a darn sight better than the H5/B5 "cottage cheese". Should be fine if it's not abused/overheated.

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AND THAT is the question I'm hoping the professor can provide once we make contact. Thanks for all the info Marc and I will try to get some pics up here soon.

Not sure when I'll be dropping the engine to look at the #3 head stud but will post when I do.

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More history:

First off, I sprayed the engine with a degreaser and magically appearing under the generator pedestal was the prior engine # B blah blah blah. Written with an electronic engraving pen like a 1st grader had done it. So this is just as you described Marc.

Secondly, I just got off of the phone with the professor at Bucknell U and that was a pretty fun conversation. He took this bus from NY to Idaho where he went to college. His father then took it back where it lived most of its life in California. His father had the engine replaced there and then the professor inherited the bus approx. 1980. His guess is that it might have 20k on it. He also said that the reason it was sold to the mechanic, was that the brakes had failed and he couldn't get the axle nuts off and they were going to leave town etc. etc. I quizzed him about the transaxle and he said it worked just fine.

Looking from underneath the bus, someone had left off the thermostat and removed the fan housing guts. I also noticed some type of non-stock tinware underneath the cylinder fins.....WTH??????

So, good news and bad news I guess.

Still would like to know what that 113P means.

[Marc]

...Looking from underneath the bus, someone had left off the thermostat and removed the fan housing guts. I also noticed some type of non-stock tinware underneath the cylinder fins.....WTH??????

For a while back in the `60s/`70s it was popular to remove the thermostat flaps because they were thought to inhibit cooling (actually they've been proven to lower cylinder head temperatures). Some folks still haven't gotten the message - wish I had a nickel for every t'stat system that's been tossed out. I'm guessing that the California shop also installed the late Type III undercylinder deflector plates, another alteration once thought to improve cooling - turns out that in most "upright" applications the OEM square plates did the job better. These are still being sold as "super-" or "cool-tin": http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... C-C10-5444

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, just something to correct if & when you ever have to rebuild the engine again. Actually I'd go ahead and fit a dualport shroud and "doghouse" cooler while I was at it, be on the lookout for a piece of `71 II front sheetmetal at swap meets. If it doesn't have one already, change the fan belt to the "alternator" 11.3x912 size. The `70 bus has a 38A generator and although it doesn't take as much power to turn as a 50A+ alternator it still is a bit more prone to belt slippage than the 30A generator in a Beetle, the wider belt helps.

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History correction:

When the professor left for college in the late 60's from upstate NY, he drove his fathers split window bus out west. His father purchased the 1970 bus new when he moved to California and he (the professor) inherited in 1980. I quizzed him on the speedo reading and he is certain that the 58,000 are original miles. That appears to make sense as the seats (which were piled on top of each other) are in very good condition with the exception of 30 years of dust. The only flaw in the front seats is the upper right corner of the passenger side where it is split from 30 years + of direct sunlight! The suspension also looks more like 58k as opposed to 158k......fairly tight and no splits in any rubber.

If this is boring, I'll shut up!!!!!!! Not much more to say anyway except the professor is sifting through paperwork from his father estate and with forward any VW "stuff"!

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Dropped the old motor on friday and removed some of the ancillaries.......muff and heater boxes are toast. Some weird old California pollution control crap I've never seen. VW of America battery too was still in the bus......was that stock?

Anyway, head studs ARE 10mm and not what I indicated earlier so that fits with the factory replacement engine you had described Marc.

Soaked the spark plug threads with ATF/acetone and let sit for 24 hours. Gently backed out the Autolite plugs......#1 came out fairly easily. A closer look shows that more than half of the outside threads are literally missing. About 4-5 inside threads look to be okay to these old eyes. WEIRD!!! Any speculation?

Drained the oil......what was left anyway which was black, surprisingly still slippery, but stank....can't describe it. Poured in some kerosene and let sit. Poured oil into oil cooler holes, spark plug holes, distributor hole, and onto the rockers then rotated without issue. I now cannot detect ANY end play. That's amazing to me. Checked the valve lash and it was all either in speck or over.....NO tight valves. Seems to have compression on all cylinders too but more impressive on the # 1 hole. Just stuck my thumb over the plug hole and rotated the crank for s#¥[s and giggles.

SO, would you:

-leave the heads on and place an insert?
-re-torque case or heads?
-replace 30+ year old valve springs?
-replace the rings?
-replace the front seal?

Don't be shy, you won't offend this rookie. I just want to make this engine fairly reliable so I don't have to pull it anytime soon as I am a busy man.

[Marc]

I'll not react to the "no endplay" situation just yet, until that's confirmed.

...I just want to make this engine fairly reliable so I don't have to pull it anytime soon as I am a busy man.

There's the rub. The more you do now the better the odds will be that it won't need to come back out again soon, but there are no guarantees when dealing with an unknown lump - for all we know, a rod bearing was just getting ready to let go before it was parked.

You should start by removing the right head and inspecting the cylinder walls. Once you head down this path, you will probably end up doing a clean/hone/rering and removing all of the valves and cleaning/hand-lapping before installing new springs. Have the #1 plug threads HeliCoil'd or TimeSert'd while the head's off for the best possible fix. Check that none of the six large case nuts is loose. Replace the flywheel seal/O-ring and the oil cooler seals.

But if feeling lucky I would:
Shoot a HeliCoil or TimeSert (but NOT a K-D insert) into #1. If that goes well,
Break all of the headnuts loose, oil any creaky threads and retorque to ~25lb-ft
Replace any worn adjusters, adjust the valves to ~.012"
Tip the engine up on one side and squirt a teaspoon of light oil/ATF (better yet, Marvel Mystery Oil) into two cylinders, rotate the crank 720° and install fresh plugs
Tip onto the other side and repeat
Service the distributor, new points
Remove the carb top. If things don't look too nasty inside, remove the jets and squirt aerosol carb cleaner through every opening. If it's too crusty, do a proper rebuild
Finish flushing the crankcase, put in oil
Fire it up on the floor and run for a half-hour with the loose valve lash (set timing, adjust carb)...yes, you can do this before installing the exhaust system if the neighbors won't mind. Good idea to have four shoprags ready to stuff into each exhaust port right after shutoff so no cool gusts hit an open hot valve and warp it.
Run a compression test, if good cross my fingers and put it back in; first remove & inspect the clutch, adjust the valves to .006"
If it makes it 300 miles with no problems, change the oil again, adjust the valves to .004" I / .006" E

VWoA battery wouldn't have been factory-installed, but it's what a dealer would've put in as a replacement.
California required the installation of an add-on EGR system, typically sourcing the exhaust gasses from a hole tapped into the intake manifold heatriser (amusing, since more often than not it's plugged up so the installation is strictly cosmetic). Perhaps they plumbed something from the muffler instead. But that reminds me, while you have the muffler off check to see if the intake preheat pipe is clear.

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Thanks Marc! Hopefully I'll get it over to NW Connecting Rod if I make it to Seattle in a few weeks and have them attempt the insert.

I'll try and get that flywheel off too and get and end play measurement. To my eye it appears to be close to that .006 but we'll see. Maybe NWCR will check that for me too so I don't bias the measurement.

[Clatter]

I'll add something if i may...

Some of these old motors have parts that are better than you can buy today at any price.

If you take the whole thing apart and clean it up and get it all right, (like the tin)
You will have something you can trust that lasts a long time.

If they did it right, back in the day, all you will need is some elbow grease and gaskets.

Sounds like a fun/easy project,
A blast from the gool old days,

And a _hell_ of a lot better than trying to get a bunch of parts from several third-world countries, made of dried toothpaste and machined without inspection to play well together..

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Thanks for the input.....was thinking the same thing but just not sure how far to go. Just made an executive decision and removed the heads. The intake valves have the VW logo, the pistons are dished, and the push rod tubes have an embossed VW part # on them. This <20K engine looks like it was running pretty rich as there is plenty of carbon....maybe thats normal though. If someone can tell me how to resize a picture from an I phone I will gladly post pics.

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Forgot to ask if you think valves of that vintage factory engine will work with today's gas? Keep the dished pistons yes? .....as long as they check out that is.

[Marc]

Yes and yes. VW started chroming the valve stems c1967. The dished pistons knock the C.R. down from a nominal 7.64 to around 7.3-7.4:1, safe to run 87 (R+M)/2 Regular in a bus under normal conditions.

If someone can tell me how to resize a picture from an I phone I will gladly post pics.

My son simply uploads the pics he takes with his phone to his Photobucket account and then posts the links to them here. smg.photobucket.com

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http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y52 ... ef7f27.jpg


Here are some pics so far. One can see those numbers stamped onto each case half.