New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.
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CentralWAbaja
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by CentralWAbaja »

SANDFLEA wrote: I will have to buy some tubing however,
What would you all recommend?
What material is the 6 point cage that you will be starting with?



SANDFLEA wrote:CentralWAbaja - Im in Olympia out in South Bay - still willing to sell it if the price is right :wink:

Well its a little more than just the partial tray...........
Support under doors are both shot underneath. Pan is rusted through
by pedals, Rear Quarter on drivers side is rusted all the way through to the
Rear support were the rear seat goes.
Front quarter lower portion is rusted through.
Both aprons are shot, I found some more fiberglass on the pans last night.
Im sure there is more..... :lol:
I think it is right on the edge of being savable.
I am all for saving a car that is a good candidate for resto......This one seems to be screaming "Baja me!!!" :lol:
It is not Mickey Moused.....It's Desert Engineered!
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TexasBaja
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by TexasBaja »

SANDFLEA wrote:
I will have to buy some tubing however,
What would you all recommend?

Your 6 point is probably 1-1/2" .090 DOM mild steel tubing. I would stick with the 1-1/2" diameter and use .090 DOM as a minimum. Here in Texas it is .095 and .120 that is available.

Cant wait to see this project get going.
Coming soon to a Dezert near you
TexasBaja 2.0
SANDFLEA
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by SANDFLEA »

Nice!
Thats what I needed to know.
Thank you.
Yea the Volksrod is going to have to wait a little while longer.
I'm anxious to get this thing offroad worthy.
Luckily the wiring is all there and has never been butchered (at all - not even for a radio)
so thats one less thing I have to worry about.
Its getting pulled in the garage tonight.
I'll start a build thread when I do. I'm going to take this one allot further than past
projects so I'll have lots of questions coming I'm sure.
Thank you all for your insite!
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Marc
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by Marc »

HREW (hot-rolled, electric-weld) tubing is nearly as good as DOM and usually much less expensive, so unless you're working under rules which mandate DOM, you can save a good bit of cash using HREW with almost no loss of integrity. DO keep the seam on the inboard side of all bends. I have never had a single failure of HREW tubing - and I was known to "test" my cages in my day :)
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Keeping the seam to the inside is not always the best.

(This is the same for DOM or seamed tubing and flat stock as well.) The material in the outer part of the bend in the tube is going to stretch as the bend is made as it has farther to go around the mandrel; because of this the material will want to pull in some (oval); this amount is going to change depending on: the inside radius, the material and how it is formed and the angle of bend (the number of degrees). Look for the little black straight or jagged lines in the bend as it is a sign of the outside of the tube starting to tear.

The material on the inside of the bend wants to compress until it can't compress/compact anymore then it either fold/buckle like a straw does when you bend it or the metal will want (usually) to fold under and look something like a Pittsburg lock. Supposedly the two sides of the bend want to remain neutral (yeah... right) but actually they (the centerline of the bend) will pull in/follow the outside surface (to a certain extent) when the outer surface of the bend does. If you were going to put a cage on the seam side I think I would consider putting the seam underneath which can be good or bad. You might be able to get by with a doubler (a half of a tube) over the area to spread the load farther out than concentrating the loads locally over the seam in the tube.

When you start bending in multiple directions; e.g., to the four winds, you try to choose/work to the worst case bend(s) and go from there.

The (minimum) bend radius dictates this and as the bend get more generous things do change some but basically what I have written is good for either tube or flat stock.

I think it was Dustymohave that said several years back that a lot of the kit cages do not always make inspection because of the thinning out of the outer surface of the critical bends in the cage. For example, a .120 wall thickness could thin out as far as .095 (an exaggeration for effect but the cage would not meet the .120 wall thickness required for the whole cage).

Lee
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dustymojave
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by dustymojave »

The 6-point cage kits are 1-1/2" x .095 (some say ".090", but it's the same tubing, both numbers are within spec for the tube) CREW. Not DOM. For your play bug that is just fine and dandy.

Marc...You're seriously confusing HREW with CREW. HREW (Hot rolled) looks like angle iron on the surface ...dark blue gray to blackish with rough texture. CREW (Cold rolled) is bright shiny silver and smooth with a dark seam along one side. CREW is FAR stronger than HREW. HREW is for stuff like wrought iron fence. It's not even strong enough for use in chain link posts and rails. I see this mistake often in forums. Neither is nearly as "Stiff" (let's not confuse stiff with strong) as DOM which has 2x the carbon content of common 1010 CREW. 4130 has 50% more carbon than DOM. Carbon makes steel stiff. But yes...Keep the seam on the inside of bends.

Lee, it wasn't me who said that. The cage OD and wall thickness rules for offroad racing are based on consideration of the wall thickness variations which happen when tubing is formed into such a structure, and took into consideration input from SCCA, NHRA, NORRA, SCIDA, SCTA, NASCAR, USAC and others. Since the original SCORE roll cage rules were written in my dining room by my dad with Mickey Thompson and myself present, I say the above for certain.

My old HiJumper race buggy was made of 1010 CREW and bent with a muffler shop type bender similar to a HF bender, but hydraulic. It got quadruple endoed while flat-out in hi gear in 1984. It's fine still. I have NO issues with using CREW for cages in offroad bugs and buggies.

For a convert which has substantial rust issues and will be offroaded, even if not too hard, I suggest tubing from the front beam to the rear torsion. Set the 6-point A and B pillars on top of the bottom rails. Especially with a +6 beam which has a lot more leverage on the stock pan mounts than a stock width beam. I've seen lots of light play bajas with bent wider beams.

"I wasn't jumping it or anything!"

Then make sure the motor mount frame horns are supported to the cage. I broke them on a mostly street Baja. Since the rear tray is rusted out, the back end of the cage resting on air isn't going to be very effective. I suggest tubing from the ends of the torsion housing up to the rear braces of the cage and down from there to the ends of the forks.

You can see them some painted blue here:
Image

You can build all that with 2 sticks of tubing. Maybe another stick for custom front and rear bumpers.

Be sure the doors are in and you keep trying them as you build it so the doors don't jam when it's all welded. Maybe even wedge the door gaps a little extra wide at the tops. Gusset between the body and cage at the A and B pillars after the cage is otherwise done. The gussets at the A pillar help with the door sagging after the front 1/4s are cut.

Oh, while the rear tray is out, think about leaving it out (not good in mud) or better...make a replacement that's a hatch. Mine is a small hatch for access, but you have the opportunity to go big.
Open:
Image
Closed:
Image
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
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'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

"Lee, it wasn't me who said that."

Who ever it was said at the time that they were part of the inspection of off-road race cars; so since I wasn't sure who it was now I assumed too much (assume = "makes an Ass out of U and Me"). Sorry 'bout that... again! :oops: At least I said I thought... :? :lol:

Lee
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dustymojave
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by dustymojave »

So when you "assume", Leave "me" out of it huh?

J/K :lol:

No offense taken.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Your name will not touch my fingers again! :cry:
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Marc
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by Marc »

dustymojave wrote:...Marc...You're seriously confusing HREW with CREW. HREW (Hot rolled) looks like angle iron on the surface ...dark blue gray to blackish with rough texture. CREW (Cold rolled) is bright shiny silver and smooth with a dark seam along one side. CREW is FAR stronger than HREW. HREW is for stuff like wrought iron fence. It's not even strong enough for use in chain link posts and rails. I see this mistake often in forums. Neither is nearly as "Stiff" (let's not confuse stiff with strong) as DOM which has 2x the carbon content of common 1010 CREW. 4130 has 50% more carbon than DOM. Carbon makes steel stiff. But yes...Keep the seam on the inside of bends...
No confusion here (I will allow that it happens from time to time). Mebbe there's some big difference in what's available today in Chinese tubing, but back in the day HREW did the job jes' fine. I trusted my life to well-constructed 1¼" & 1½" HREW cages in local circle-track Mini-Super cars, WORRA desert races, and Mickey Thompson stadium-racer buggies - in all venues I was legendary for "testing" my cages ;) ( I have the "rollover" trophies to back that up) ...I'm still alive today, which has to say something.
I beat the HELL out of many a roll cage and never saw a single split seam on HREW tubing. If you wanna spend more on DOM, go right ahead...but based upon my experience, I think it's a waste of money.
Volksmeister
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by Volksmeister »

Ha! you ARE in Washington! I thought I had seen that car for sale on craigslist... Looks like you have your work cut out for ya.

-Levi
I'm not who I am!
SANDFLEA
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by SANDFLEA »

Thanks for all the great Info!
I had to read all that twice to take it in.
Love that hatch idea Richard.
I am rethinking the 6" wider beam. Since this will be in woods / mud
and rarely see sand I may just stick with a stocker.

Since I'll be starting with a Bolt together 6 point as a starting point will I have any issues with welding the sleeve that connects the center portion of the roll bar to the front portion? Its a bigger OD tube that slips over each end and is meant to be bolted together.
The two rear supports also Slip into the center section.
I'm using a 120 Mig with .03 wire. Would a .035 be better for .095 tubing?
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CentralWAbaja
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by CentralWAbaja »

Pics man Pics :lol:

How much bigger is the outer tube and what wall thickness is that? If it is a snug fit then a couple plug welds a bead around the outer one. yYou might cut a fish mouth or just a bit of a miter on the outer tube so that your wed is not just strait around the tube.

Kind what I am talking about....outer tube is cut at an angle to keep the HAZ from being square around the inner one
Image

As for .030 wire? There are way more qualified guys to answer that question, but that is what I used for mine. But that was with a 220v machine also. I am not sure you would want to try and go up to .035 on a 110 machine. Just my two pennies worth.
It is not Mickey Moused.....It's Desert Engineered!
SANDFLEA
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by SANDFLEA »

It is a pretty snug fit. Wall thinkness is .090 also
I hadn't thought about plug welds - nice idea.
Its a 120 welder.
Damn nice Welds there CW.

Was your car blue and white at one point?
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CentralWAbaja
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Re: New Vert Baja - Where is best place to support?

Post by CentralWAbaja »

SANDFLEA wrote:
Was your car blue and white at one point?
Which car? no... the old one was originally a yellow but has been white and red cage for 17 years. And the new one had a white donor body and a kinda blueish donor body so yeah...sorta...but not really :lol:
It is not Mickey Moused.....It's Desert Engineered!
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