Oil cooler seals standard or adaptor

[NAFix]

Prior to `70, all cases were single-relief - and there were some newer cases made south of the border which were too.
From here on I'm talkin' US-market:
Through `69, single-relief/8mm oil passages/early-style cooler (non dog-house, 6mm mounting hardware, inside the main shroud with wedding-band style cooler seals; the bottom of the cooler was "flat").
1970 only (B6 case), dual-relief/10mm passages/modified early-style cooler with slight bumps at the three 6mm mounting points to provide clearance for the "flying-saucer" seals (not to be confused with the thicker 8mm seals used on pre`70 Type III). These coolers (P/N 111 117 021E) obsoleted the 111 117 021 flat-bottom coolers so you may find one on an earlier engine if it's ever been replaced. Special seals are needed when doing this (read on).
1971 and up (AE/AH/AK/AJ/etc./etc. cases), dual-relief/10mm passage with 8mm mounting hardware and the "doghouse" cooler. These use the same seals as the `70.
There exist "conversion" seals (usually green in color, rarely grey) which allow the use of a 10mm-passage cooler on an 8mm-passage case and vise-versa. In the unique situation of fitting an early flat-bottom cooler to a later case (yecch!) it's also necessary to put spacer washers at the 3 mounting points to lift the cooler enough to prevent squishing the seals, in all other scenarios the spacer washers are not used.
Obviously, if fitting a doghouse cooler with 8mm mounting hardware to a `70 or earlier case you'll need to drill out the holes in the two case "ears" and replace the 6mm stud with an 8mm (there are sleazier options, I'll not address those right now).
Less-obviously, if fitting an early cooler with 6mm mounting hardware you should furnish a sleeve around at least one of the cooler studs to properly position it over the seals. The 8mm stud in the case doesn't have to be replaced with 6mm (although that's the more elegant way) if you open up the slot in the cooler enough to accept the 8mm stud.

What's the ID number of the case in question?

The foregoing is an answer from Marc from almost two years ago. It answers a lot, but my situation makes me wonder.... I'm finally reassembling my 1600 dual-port after replacing clutch and push rod tubes.

My question is whether I need the green adaptor oil cooler seals and stud spacers or the orange flying saucer style, I already installed? It had green ones when I took it apart, but then I didn't know they were any different in shape and purpose than the orange ones. It did not have stud spacers "to prevent squishing the seals."

The case number is AB 106393, which I've figured out makes it a 1300 case manufactured roughly October/November of 1970. (Does that make it a '71 model year?) The doghouse cooler seems to be matched to that case, flat on bottom. Installing the cooler over the seals without tightening nuts at all had it resting on the seals raised above the top of the case a smidge and without knowing, since I hadn't read the quoted post yet, I wondered if I should just tighten it down knowing it would squish the seals a little. I went ahead and tightened it down to the case without washers just to see if it would go all the way. Taking it back off, it didn't seem to distort the seals. So I put on the washers and buttoned it up. Now engine tin is on, too.

I know this is a key area for leaking. I believe the cooler is the correct one for that year/size case, but wanted to double check the issue of whether I may have squished the seals beyond normal squish specs. Those previous green seals also make me wonder if indeed I should be using them, because I may, in fact, actually have a "newer" cooler on an "older" case and just not know it. Based on the quoted post and the case number I think everything is okay, but wanted to be sure before I finish putting it all back together and putting it in the buggy.

Thanx,
Barry

[NAFix]

Forgot to mention it does have 8mm mounting hardware and case is dual relief. And in re-reading the original post again, I'm convinced it is not the earlier cooler... And probably later than 1970. Am I good to go?

Barry

[Marc]

AB case and doghouse cooler uses orange seals (021 117 151A) and NO spacer washers...the seals do need to compress slightly.

... So I put on the washers and buttoned it up. Now engine tin is on, too...Am I good to go?...

Does this mean you put spacer washers between case & adaptor? If so, they need to be removed.

Did you renew the seals between the adaptor and the cooler, too? It's true that they last longer than the ones between case & adapter (because they don't get as hot) but I still recommend replacing them unless you know they're recent. 021 117 151A here also.

[NAFix]

Thanx Marc,

No, I did not use spacers and no, I did not replace the seals from adaptor to filter. The friend who gave me the orange seals said not to mess with them if they seemed to not be leaking. There was no evidence of leakage so I did not replace them. Plus, it's not that easy to find individual seals in this desert outpost. (I know I can get them on line.) Should've bought a gasket set to begin with, considering all the ones I've gotten separately. May have to rethink the decision not to change them. These things seem to be so quirky to get just right, that in this case I may stick to the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it rule.

Thanx again,
Barry

[Marc]

...in this case I may stick to the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it rule...

Probably safe. It's not likely that whoever put the wrong (green) seals between case & adaptor also did so between adapter & cooler...
Gasket sets only include two of the correct orange seals, so lots of people skip replacing the other two and get away with it.

[NAFix]

As it turns out, my friend had given me four of the correct orange ones, so I went ahead and used them between the adaptor and cooler. I have trouble being anything less than Type "A"nal after learning for my first 30 years or so what doing things halfway gets you. Now 61, just couldn't put it back together not knowing how new they were. There was some oil/dirt gunk in the cavity on the adaptor so they might have been leaking. Got the tin, shroud, and generator back on and figured it would be easier to put the new plugs in before I put the carbs on. Discovered number two hole is stripped (old plug, which was just there barely tight to fill the hole, came out hard), so I'm off to the machine shop Monday for a Helicoil. The roadblocks never seem to end, but I'll get there.

[Marc]

Don't let anyone talk you into a K-D steel insert (unless it's determined that the head's cracked and not worth the effort of a quality repair). Those things are larger than a HeliCoil and commonly seize to the plug and come out with it. I prefer a TimeSert to a HeliCoil here but the latter works if installed properly.

[NAFix]

Thanx for those tips. That's info I'd never find in a book, only from the voice of experience on a forum. Glad I waited so long to get into an older VW. Without Muir's book and these magical forums, I'd be making a lot more trouble for myself. I'm thankful so many "pioneers" participate in these forums so I can learn from others' experience. Still need to get more tech manuals. Many suggest Bentley. I'll need the one covering 1968 as well as 71-79, as the chassis is 68. Any opinions on any other tech books?

[doc]

NAFix,

Welcome to STF! Marc's VW knowledge is really encyclopedic. You hooked up with one of the best and most generous gurus available. Thanks, Marc (as usual).

You make an interesting reference that I can't help but comment on. If you have Muir's book, the appropriate Bentley manual and access to STF, IMO, you're there. All other resources, while not unworthy, will be icing on the cake. I've been doing this a long time and those three sources provide all the library I've ever needed. Of course, it hasn't kept me from buying about 50 other related resources which i almost never use.

I always think that Muir's (original) book was a masterpiece. It really allows the absolute beginner to work on a VW. People laugh at me when I call it one of the best books I've ever read. I've certainly read it more than any other book. The guy had a vibe that really foretold the hobby we know today. Smart guy!

I think Bentley in middle English used to mean Bible. Same for VWs.

The forums, here and others, continually blow my mind with the amount of info people are willing to share.

Good luck with your motor.

doc

[Marc]

I'd recommend the "blue" Bentley then; you should be able to find coverage of the DP engine online (amd you've no use at all for the fuel injection chapter) so the "orange" (`70-`79) wouldn't be as useful IMO.



The "Without Guesswork" workshop manuals are a good source for specs, too - no need to purchase, they're available for download (.pdf):
http://vintagebus.com/parts/wog69.html
http://vintagebus.com/parts/wog72.html

All of the Bentley manual electrical diagrams are available here: http://vintagebus.com/wiring/index.html
...these are in color, unlike the hard-to-follow black & white diagrams which come in the current editions.

[NAFix]

I had seen Bentley books when I was looking for the Compleat Idiot's Guide... I think then I was looking for "dummies guide," because the PO called it that when we were talking about books I should get to help with repairs, etc. Then a couple week's ago I started a little dust-up on another forum by calling the Idiot's guide the "VW Bible." I was double checking torque spec for the gland nut. Muir said 220, but a friend, who used to build Porsche racing motors said I ought a go to 280. On that forum I couldn't find a thread specifically about this but found various others that mentioned from 253 to 257. So I asked where those numbers were coming from. After some poo-pooing the notion that Muir was the bible, someone finally referenced Bentley at 253. About the time I was gonna take the clutch back off and increase to 253 I checked again, and a guy who had previously defended Muir, came back and sited the "true bible," showing the cover of the 71-74 (I think) VW Without Guesswork guide, from which he quoted 217. Then another quoted Bentley, Muir, and Chilton with page numbers(!), all at 217. So I left it the way it was. So there definitely is a wealth of info (and opinion) in the forums, but I know I have to get Bentley. Happy to see that PDFs of Without Guesswork are also available. For now the motor will stay stock except for the dual one-barrels it came with. I've learned a helluvalot since I started this project and living in the California Desert there are a lot of locals willing to share their experience, tools, and parts. Seems here you can't drive down a residential block without seeing some type of VW dunebuggy in a driveway or two. If I can get it on the road in time for the fall cool-down, I'll be happy.... I'm not sure I could stand much trail-driving in our 100-plus days.

[Marc]

Although there's only one gland nut available new anymore (111 105 305E), there were originally several...the torque should correspond to the version used.

The 1200 and 13/1500 versions had a tapered/bellmouth I.D. and it's not advisable to exceed the 30mkg (217lb-ft) spec on those. The 1600 version has a straight-bore I.D. - may or may not have a short bevel depending upon manufacturer - and can handle the 35mkg (253lb-ft) torque easily.

The 111 105 305E (1600) is represented by most parts-sellers as fitting all engines - but that's only because it's the only one they have to offer. Generally, the threads on 1200 cranks aren't quite deep enough to accept the slightly-longer 13/1500 or 1600 glandnuts - one needs to check that the gland nut can be turned in fully against the flywheel by hand with no washer before attempting final assembly. If not, a thicker washer is an expedient solution provided the center of the clutch disk still clears the head of the glandnut (by at least .020" to allow for disk wear).

With an aftermarket high-strength glandnut, 300-450lb-ft is often used. This gives no problem with an OG steel crank, but can easily pull the threads on a cast-iron crank.

[NAFix]

Marc,
This oil cooler topic seems to have expanded to my buggy's rehab project completion topic. Yet another friend said he had a spark plug hole chasing tool, so I took the head out to his place yesterday afternoon, and it worked.... He also had Helicoil stuff, too, just in case. He's an American car Hot Rodder and retired machinist, but when he had a speed shop here in the 70s he also carried VW off-road stuff. After getting the head back on I decided to actually torque the plugs to Muir's spec and I was surprised by how high (22-29, I used 24) that was and how far the plugs went in. So I took a look at the 72 Without Guesswork manual through the link you provided, and it was the same as Muir.

While there, 72 WOG, saw that gland nut was recommended at 253. This info together with your comments above have convinced me to take it to 253. The gland nut is new and oddly still had the zip bag it came in with the old nut in it, and it is a 111 105 305 E. This'll give me more experience with the clutch alignment tool!!! I really don't have a problem assembling, disassembling, and reassembling to get it right. . . . Taking the motor back out after something broke that I didn't get right.... That might "torque" ME off.

[NAFix]

Managed to bump up the torque on gland nut to 253 singlehandedly. Here's the setup. Engine tied down to table using come-along and tie-down strap (tightened with half-inch breaker against table leg) around a 2.5" square tube with floor jack handle inserted in tube and wedged under top edge of cabinet to keep the table from gong over. I used a chunk of hard oak firewood as the wedge, but probably could have gotten by with pine . May just have to submit to submit this photo to Muir publishers so an alternative illustration can be added for this torquing procedure in the next edition!!