Nosecone differences

[57Airhead]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Info on these boards has proven invaluable in getting my 58 bus to the point it is. But can't seem to find anything on this issue specifically:

Went to test fit a new transaxle yesterday and, much to my dismay, found that the input shaft was about an inch lower than it should be to marry to shift rod coupler properly. Went back and had a closer look at the old gearbox and found some obvious differences:





And a pic of the trans mount bracket



So, have I got the wrong nosecone for my setup -- well, obviously I have, but which is which and what do I need to order.

Or has the trans mount bracket been welded too low and I should take this opportunity to correct it and raise it about an inch. Where should it be?

It's a 58 standard bus with IRS conversion. The old gearbox, fit-wise, worked just fine, though I notice that the trans mount (the steel-and-urethane mounting) had its mounting holes elongated slightly to give it, maybe, 5mm of play. I would say this is to account for the bracket being welded on slightly crooked.

Any advice appreciated.

[sideshow]

Use a bus nosecone and hockey stick when in a bus, use a beetle nose cone and hockey stick when in a beetle.

[Marc]

That's not the whole story. You also use the `60-`67 Bus nosecone and hockeystick when installing a `61-up Bug trans in an older Bug that originally had a splitbox.

What's happening here is that the PO welded a new front mount bracket in place (slightly crooked, unfortunately) positioned so that the "old" trans fit but the "new" one, which has a 211 nosecone, does not. Had they simply purchased the adapter mount from bus-boys.com (P/N 210-30001) they could've bolted the trans in using a 211 nosecone and hockeystick, but it's too late for that now - the car's been bastardized to take a Bug nosecone.

To fix this right, another bracket should be welded in to "update" the Bus to `60-`67 style, then the 211 nosecone will work with a stock 211 301 265A front mount...either that, or put the stock `58 bracket back in and use the 210-30001 mount. Note that you MUST use the Bus hockeystick with the 211 nosecone, it has an extra little crook at the business end so it can properly engage the shift rails - A Bug hockeystick in a 211 nosecone will almost work, but it'll catch on the adjacent shiftrail and you'll spend the rest of your life futily attempting to adjust the shifter to compensate.

The expedient way to get this car on the road would be to put a Bug nosecone (custom-fit for the crooked bracket) and hockeystick on the "new" trans. It'll never be right, though - those stud holes need to be a snug fit on the mount, when they're oversize the trans may shift upon accel/decel no matter how tight the nuts are. The best you can do with this crooked bracket is to have one stud that resists motion on accel and the other doing so on decel....unless you have the holes welded up and redrill them to match the bracket.

This is a 211 nosecone. The latest variant ("G" or "H" suffix) with backup light switch. Earlier versions have the same vital dimensions but may lack the switch or the hockeystick oil seal. Note how much lower the hockeystick is, compared to the Bug nosecone below:


You'll find these with 113, 131, and 311 numbers - all interchangeable (early Bug had 8mm mount studs rather than 10mm, and again the seal and backup light switches were progressive refinements, but they have the same dimensions):


This is the `60-`67 Bus hockeystick, for use with 211 301 211x nosecones. It will have one detent for the shift coupler grubscrew, on the bottom:

This is the `61-up Bug hockeystick, which works in 113/131/311 301 211x nosecones (including the `73-up Bug ones with 3 stud holes):


It'll have the detent hole on the top, and usually another one on the bottom that's off by ~20° (I have no idea what that's for, it's probably just an artifact of the manufacturing process - it's visible on the one pictured). There are also late-model ones which have a contoured shaft to operate an extra switch, but they have the same critical dimensions - so does the Type III part, but it only has one detent hole (exactly) on the bottom, not to be confused with the Bus part.
Lastly there's the AutoStick, which is shorter and has a single detent screw hole on the top but displaced ~15° from where it is on a 4-speed. Berg uses these in their 5-speed conversions.

Hopefully all of the above makes sense, because I've reserved for last the hockeystick part numbers because they do not
The `60-`67 Bus part has a P/N that looks like it should be in a Type I: 113 311 541
The `61-up Bug part (the one without the crooked end) is 113 311 541C

[Bruce2]

Lastly there's the AutoStick, which is shorter and has a single detent screw hole on the top but displaced ~15° from where it is on a 4-speed. Berg uses {a modified version of} these in their 5-speed conversions.

[Marc]

You caught me while I was still in the midst of proofreading/correcting the post...I think it's done now, but please check to see if there's anything else to say here.

[57Airhead]

Thanks, Marc, for such a comprehensive reply. Very much appreciated.

Is there a specific name for the weld-in brackets? I've been trying to find them but can only seem to find Beetle versions, and even then only at a very few suppliers.

You're right: the quickest solution for me is to get it changed to a beetle nosecone as per the PO's setup. I would, however, like to correct the crooked bracket, as I can see it causing all sorts of minor but disagreeable gremlins at install.

If I were to grind off the existing bracket in order to weld in a new, straight (Beetle) bracket, is there a reference or trick to knowing exactly where it has to go?

[Marc]

I can't think of any method that'd give better results than simply using the transmission to establish the bracket location. Probably how they did it last time, they just didn't spend enough time checking that everything was "square" before firing up the welder. I haven't seen any new Bus front mount brackets in years either, if you want to update to the `60-`67 II mount location (that'd be best IMO) you'll probably need to work with used parts and/or fabricate something