lockers and LSDs

[Pablo]

Fuser

A bit of confusion arises from the fact that there are "002 Bus" boxes and "002 Type I" boxes. The ring gear found in both 002 & 091 Bus Boxes is larger in diameter than the ring gear found in 113 or 002 Type I boxes. Therefore, the diffs cannot be interchanged.

[fusername]

Ok that is some good info there. I guess where I was confused was that I knew the ring gear was different, however since that just bolts onto the diff I was hopeful it could be pulled and swapped. So many questions, the learning curve is steep in here, thanks guys!

[4agedub]

but you can also spell "understeer" with those letters

We've been running a locked diff in our track beetle... it's got a little understeer, but for what you gain it's worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTHMk7GFpuc

[Jadewombat]

Just found this topic, I have a 002 and Berg intermediate housing I'm considering using in my '73 bug. So the 40% Vanagon locker, was that offered/equipped on US models? Also, is a Peloquin is a 100% LSD?

http://www.peloquins.com/products_091.html

[Pablo2]

In VW language, a "Locker" is what's found in the Vanagon Syncro (094) .. an open diff that can be fully locked into a spool for short distances (trail riding). There is no in-between .. open diff or spool only.

"Locker" is also a non-specific, generic term thrown around by the V8 crowd to mean just about any diff that's not an open diff.

The Peloquin is a Torque-Biasing Differential (TBD), not an LSD. A TBD is dependant on both wheels being pretty well planted, while an LSD provides at least some traction even if one tire lifts. An LSD also provides lock-up on deceleration, while a TBD provides lock-up on acceleration only.

There is a version of Peloquin TBD made for Syncro transmissions that can replace the Syncro's Locker .. so it's a TBD or a Locker .. an upgrade from the Syncro diff for Syncros only. (Only the Syncro transmission has the fork, rod, and actuator that fully locks the diff.)

If you search around, you may be able to find some used 40% Vanagon ZF Limited-Slip Differentials (LSD). These are OK for lighter duty use. The Peloquin TBD is more durable.

[ntsqd]

.......
"Locker" is also a non-specific, generic term thrown around by the V8 crowd to mean just about any diff that's not an open diff.

True as far as the nuuB's go, any of the vet's use "locker" to mean anything from an ARB to a Detroit with the OX and all of the "lunch-box lockers" (Lock-Rite, etc.) in the middle, but excluding diff's like the Weismann (sp?), Tru-Trac & other TBD's, or any of the various clutch type "Posi-Tractions". Those all fall into the LSD grouping as far as they're concerned and are of little to no value to them.

Might be more correct to say "4x4 crowd" than "V8 crowd" as there are a whole bunch of 4cyl & 6 cyl drivers out there who know the differences. As far as I can tell most of the hot street car guys are still stuck on "does it have a posi?"

Interesting that there is a TBD/locker available for the Synchro t/a. I need one of those......

[Jadewombat]

I can't quite justify putting a $1400 Quaife in my car but would like something other than the open diff. I'd like to get a phantom grip for my car, I have a '73 bug with a SSC trans. Would this kit work, I know it says '69-72 but is are the diffs between '69-72 and '73 and up so much different?

http://www.phantomgrip.com/order?page=s ... gory_id=43

Are these noisy like the Weddle 002 locker kits which 'pop'?

[Bruce2]

I think the Weddle kit you talk about is the Loc-Right. That device relies on it's short gear teeth skipping on the side gear's teeth in order to go around a corner. It replaces the spider gears. It's absolutely not for street use, I would expect them to wear out very quickly. Probably why they don't sell them anymore.

The Phantom Grip is a bit of a joke design.
You have to wonder why they have a disclaimer warning you about choosing their product:

"Purchasers expressly affirm they are relying upon their own skill or judgment to select and purchase Phantom Grip limited Slip conversion kits"

If the stock ZF is a 40% diff, my guess is that the Phantom Grip is a 5% diff.

If you must have one, there's no difference as far as the Phantom Grip is concerned between the 73 and later and the 72 and earlier. The diff housing and all the parts within are exactly the same except for the tooth counts on all the gears. If you buy it, don't grind away on the ends of the side gears like they show.
Let us know how it works.

[ntsqd]

.....
I think the Weddle kit you talk about is the Loc-Right. That device relies on it's short gear teeth skipping on the side gear's teeth in order to go around a corner. It replaces the spider gears. It's absolutely not for street use, I would expect them to wear out very quickly. Probably why they don't sell them anymore.

IF it truly is/was a Lock-Rite then I wouldn't want one for solely street use, but I have about 130,000 miles of combined on and off road miles on one in my Yota Mini-truck 4wd. They only "skip teeth" when the cross axle torsion ("wind-up") gets excessive. Until that point the behave like a spool when either under power or under compression braking. When they do "skip teeth" it sounds like something broke in there; off roaders nonchalantly refer to this as a "locker noise." In modulated throttle they behave like an open diff.

[Bruce2]

They only "skip teeth" when the cross axle torsion ("wind-up") gets excessive.

Like when you go around a corner on pavement.

[ntsqd]

They only "skip teeth" when the cross axle torsion ("wind-up") gets excessive.

Like when you go around a corner on pavement.

Not every time, no. The lighter the vehicle the more likely it is to chirp the tires than ratchet the diff. There's a big difference in behavior with a full bed vs. an empty bed. On pavement if I'm at my combined surface tire pressure (~20 psi) it will ratchet more than if I'm at high pressure (32-35 psi). Similarly, the tighter the turn the more likely it is to ratchet. Freeway on/off ramps: it's a spool under power or compression braking. Parking lot slow speed corners it ratchets so long as the tire pressure is low enough, and every once in a while even with high pressure but in most of those instances it chirps the tires.
I don't particularly care for this diff on the street, but once on dirt it makes driving much, much easier on both me and my equipment. Had I to do it over I would be looking at one of the gear type limited slips for the rear or an ARB selectable. For a T2 I've long thought that the Synchro rear diff would be a good option, though I would make my own shifting mechanism.

[Steve Arndt]

The phantom grip wouldn't work with a 4 spider vanagon diff, right?
Steve

[Bruce2]

The phantom grip wouldn't work with a 4 spider vanagon diff, right?

Phantom Grips don't work in cars owned by engineers.

[Steve Arndt]

True that, just clearing the air for others.
I can destroy spider gears without extra help from a spring loaded poor mans posi.

[Jadewombat]

A good read on the subject:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... ferentials