Stampings on engine case

[Schillnuts]

thanks for your response Marc. just to make sure i understand what your response meant, joining the case halves and torquing them to spec is a way to measure how far the main bearing saddles have been machined (difference of .020" (or .040", or .060") over stock?

i also took a long and good look over the case and have found more interesting things with it and have posted pictures at the link below, but links to specific pictures in regard to the questions are also provided for ease of viewing and answering of questions:

http://rides.webshots.com/album/580937906KPPrTS

doing so has raised more questions in regard to this case.
first off, are the cast VW part numbers for both engine case halves supposed to be that different from each other?
-39 211 101 101 E AS41 (driver's side when looking at the case with the crankshaft pulley looking at you)
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2220576 ... 5207ZsfUcu

-38 111 101 102 D AS41 (passenger's side when looking at the case with the crankshaft pulley looking at you)
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2130226 ... 5207YIHquV

second, the location where the engine serial number is usually stamped is blank (it is a universal case which is supposed to serve as a replacement, hence the blank space to stamp the old engine number), but seems to be sheared off, or machined. is this how it is supposed to look if it were straight from the factory in Germany?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2679941 ... 5207wRCxTw

third, the #4 bearing saddle has two different shades of metal and a noticeable lip between them. the machinist i took the case to in order to measure the bearing saddles pointed out it looks like the boring tool stopped at that point. is this true, or is this normal?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2797998 ... 5207sCoFkh

fourth, i placed the standard Mahle bearings into the #2 main bearing saddle of the driver's side (slipped in very easily without any resistance and fell out without any assistance), joined the two case halves and was able to easily slip in the passenger's side bearing into the #2 main bearing saddle. is this supposed to happen? and, is there supposed to be a noticeable and measurable gap between the bearing and the case (see pictures beginning with the link and onward)

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2392639 ... 5207wTMbng


fifth, i noticed a chip in the outside portion of the case near the crankshaft pulley area, will this affect the sealing area?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2404144 ... 5207pZTAAA

sixth, i noticed a chip mark on the inside portion of the passenger's side case below the #3 bearing saddle where the case studs from the other case half are inserted.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2565814 ... 5207iohTeM

seventh, there is a punch mark on the nut on the passenger's side of the case near where the oil dip stick is located. is this also normal?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2059636 ... 5207hpYtBS

eighth, the numbers "973" are stamped on the top portion of the case near the flywheel. picture was taken with the flywheel side on a table and the oil sump facing away from me, distributor is facing me. what do these numbers mean?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2670012 ... 5207cUBUBC

again, thanks to all who have provided input and answers to my inquiries. this is my first dive into rebuilding an air-cooled VW engine, and i want to make sure the case i have has not been machined, damaged, or rendered unusable.

[sideshow]

...cast VW part numbers for both engine case halves supposed to be that different from each other?
-39 211 101 101 E AS41 (driver's side when looking at the case with the crankshaft pulley looking at you)
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2220576 ... 5207ZsfUcu

-38 111 101 102 D AS41 (passenger's side when looking at the case with the crankshaft pulley looking at you)
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2130226 ... 5207YIHquV
Dies need different part numbers for left & right, normal.

second, the location where the engine serial number is usually stamped is blank (it is a universal case which is supposed to serve as a replacement, hence the blank space to stamp the old engine number), but seems to be sheared off, or machined. is this how it is supposed to look if it were straight from the factory in Germany?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2679941 ... 5207wRCxTw
Not normal, somebody took a sanding disk (?) to that part of the case

third, the #4 bearing saddle has two different shades of metal and a noticeable lip between them. the machinist i took the case to in order to measure the bearing saddles pointed out it looks like the boring tool stopped at that point. is this true, or is this normal?

One is a bearing surface, the other is an air gap, normal.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2797998 ... 5207sCoFkh

fourth, i placed the standard Mahle bearings into the #2 main bearing saddle of the driver's side (slipped in very easily without any resistance and fell out without any assistance), joined the two case halves and was able to easily slip in the passenger's side bearing into the #2 main bearing saddle. is this supposed to happen? and, is there supposed to be a noticeable and measurable gap between the bearing and the case (see pictures beginning with the link and onward)

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2392639 ... 5207wTMbng

There should be no air gap when torqued to factory spec.

fifth, i noticed a chip in the outside portion of the case near the crankshaft pulley area, will this affect the sealing area?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2404144 ... 5207pZTAAA

That isn't the critical sealing area, wouldn't sweat it at this point.

sixth, i noticed a chip mark on the inside portion of the passenger's side case below the #3 bearing saddle where the case studs from the other case half are inserted.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2565814 ... 5207iohTeM

Not a chip, part of the casting, if there is enough meat to support the case o-ring stud this is normal.

seventh, there is a punch mark on the nut on the passenger's side of the case near where the oil dip stick is located. is this also normal?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2059636 ... 5207hpYtBS

Peen mark totally normal.

eighth, the numbers "973" are stamped on the top portion of the case near the flywheel. picture was taken with the flywheel side on a table and the oil sump facing away from me, distributor is facing me. what do these numbers mean?

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2670012 ... 5207cUBUBC

This is done at the factory to keep experts from mixing and matching case half's. Normal and desirable.

again, thanks to all who have provided input and answers to my inquiries. this is my first dive into rebuilding an air-cooled VW engine, and i want to make sure the case i have has not been machined, damaged, or rendered unusable.

[Schillnuts]

i realize that there are different dies for the different sides of engine cases, just haven't seen them that numerically far apart before. granted that my experience is limited - have only seen a total of 4 cases in up close and in person on a regular basis- the stock original in my 1973 autostick Beetle, the trashed case that came in my 1974 Ghia, a stock 1500cc single port, and this case. their numbers started with 111 and then 101 etc.

also wondering if the bearing saddles will "crush" down that far once the case halves are torqued to spec. from all of the articles and publications i have read - the bearings ought to go in with some resistance and not fall out on their own, which they do in this case. being stock bearings, they ought to fit in the bearing saddles and have the proper "crush" once the case halves are joined and torqued, making the seating and installation of the bearings final. in the case of this engine case, the engine case halves are mating fairly flush to each other after being joined and still leaving that air gap, leaving me to think that even after torquing the case to spec, the bearings will still slide out on their own.

so then, why does it have these stampings "10" and "040", the area below the alternator has been scraped, and the measurements i have taken and have been verified by a local small engine shop conclude that the bearing saddles are not at the stock measurements, and are actually approaching their wear limit?

[sideshow]

Using the six big case nuts and washers, torque the case to factory specs.
Get the #3 bearing out of the box, measure the OD in couple of places to see if it is out of round.

If you can pass that bearing through any of three large mains, its not standard.
If you can pass daylight through the surrounding of case studs, the case is beyond useful life.

[Schillnuts]

the issue is that the bearing easily passes through the case haves when the case halves are joined together. there is a noticeable gap of about 1-2mm between the bearing and saddle as shown in the pictures. from the publications i have read over the weekend - VW Official Service Manual, Haynes Manual, How To Hotrod VW Engines, John Muir's Idiot book, the "crush" for the bearings is so minute that torquing the case, in my opinion won't matter since the bearings have no "crush" allotment.

from the VW Manual: bearing clearance as denoted in section 17.2, page 45:
crankshaft bearings 1 and 3 (new) 0.04-0.10mm or .0016-.004in with a wear limit of 0.18mm or .007in
2 (new) 0.03-0.09mm or .001-.0035in with a wear limit of 0.17mm or .0067in
4 (new) 0.05-0.10mm or .002-.004in with a wear limit of 0.19mm or .0075in

looking at this picture as a reference
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2912202 ... 5207KgRUuD

will torquing the case close this gap?

[Marc]

The specifications you've just cited refer to clearance between the crankshaft and the bearing I.D., not the crankcase and bearing O.D. which is the issue at hand. NO "clearance" is acceptable between case & bearing.

Why are we still futzing around with this? It's been resolved that the case isn't standard anymore, standard bearings aren't going to fit.
The accuracy of dial calipers is at best ±.001" so they're not good enough to make closer measurements, but they can certainly tell you the nominal size of the bore - and it's been established that it's grossly beyond standard (2.5590-2.5597, with a wear limit of 2.5601" for #1,2,&3 and 1.9685-1.9697 with a wear limit of 1.9700" for #4).

[Schillnuts]

Marc,
the reason why this is still an issue is because a request has been made to have the case halves joined and torqued to spec and the main bearing saddles then measured with a more precise instrument - bore dial gauge and whatnot - which i think is unnecessary due to the measurements already taken and compared to the specifications provided by VW and published in multiple publications/articles etc. also, the fact that VW made the cases to have circular bearing saddles (once the case halves are joined and torqued). therefore, the measurement already made (for each case half) provide the diameter for half of the circle (made by both case halves being joined) and once joined, the diameter won't change, nor will the inside measurements. in my mind, this is basic geometry, but again i don't want to make assumptions.

to confirm, do the measurements i have taken with digital calipers (that belong to a machinist) and posted as an URL earlier in this thread , as well as the measurements made by the small engine repair shop provide enough evidence that the case has been machined (ie no longer the stock bore for the main bearing saddles)? just looking for a definitive answer to cover my bases.

also, been trying to find anywhere in print or online (spent most of the weekend doing this) pictures of how to measure the main bearing saddles. even the VW Official Repair Manual is vague in this description - at least vague to someone like me, who isn't a pro, but trying to learn how to rebuild my first VW engine. any help in regard to this would be great for the current reference as well as for future reference for myself and anyone else who may be attempting to build their first engine.

[Marc]

...the 1500cc case registered 64.87mm and the 1600cc measured at 66.37 (overall difference from stock being 1.5mm)....

That's end-of-story so far as I'm concerned. True measurements are probably closer to 65.0 and 66.5mm, but this is close enough to know that the case is far from pristine. I thought I'd already made that clear:

...One may question the accuracy of Jason's measuring device, but what's germaine is that he's seeing a 1.50mm difference between this case and another - no way that happens without machinework. Looks like this case has been linebored not once or twice, but three times. NO new factory case would have "040" stamped into the oil cooler flange, but that's a common place for an (American) machinist to mark the size he's linebored a case to...

Add to this the fact that a standard-sized #3 bearing shell literally falls through the holes when the case is assembled - there's no need to make a precision measurement with a bore gauge to tell that the case is not standard. Now, if you intend to use it anyway, torque it together and have the bore checked with an inside micrometer or bore gauge to ensure that it's going to properly accept an oversize bearing. At one time it wasn't possible to find steel-backed center main bearing shells in .060" or .080" oversize, but they're now available from Mahle. Still a far cry from a new case (how much wear is there in the lifter bores, for example, by the time a case has enough miles on it to need to be linebored 2 or 3 times?) but at least it's now possible to use a case like this for a better-than-trashmo build.

[Schillnuts]

just posted the results (pages 3 and 4) of the small engine shop owner, Gene, and the measurements he made as well as his certifications and receipt. thank you all for your help in improving my knowledge in regards to measuring bearing saddle bores and further encouraging me to continue growing in my own VW experiences.

[urlhttp://rides.webshots.com/album/580937906KPPrTS][/url]

[Schillnuts]

Wow, not to resurrect an old thread, but figured that i ought to give some closure in regard to this topic. After a few phone calls to an eBay rep and a few days waiting time, i was able to get my money back along with free shipping back to the seller (was stuck with the bill for having a machinist check the bearing saddle measurements though). All in all, being stuck with a $37 bill is cheap for this learning experience as i am not stuck with a block for a paperweight. Doing my homework and getting research done to build a solid engine...which i will be posting about soon on a different thread. Anyway, a very sincere thank you to all who have helped me in this process - especially Marc and sideshow, i would be out a huge chunk of money while looking and loathing a worthless engine block without your help. This is what has drawn me to the VW scene, members helping members and sharing information freely. i look forward to someday being as helpful to someone else.

[Clatter]

This is a cool story.
At least it ended cool.
I love it when scammers get theirs in the end...

Marc said "Thrashmo"!

I would say that any case bored .060 or .080 over would NOT be better-than-thrashmo.
That, IMHO, would be a Thrashmo build for sure,
over-oversize bearings or not!

[Marc]

The real issue with a "big" line-bore diameter isn't that it weakens the case...consider that some Type I high-performance crankshafts are made with larger Type IV center main journals, and nobody gives a second thought to opening up a Type I case to accept the Type IV bearing.
What's of concern is WHY has the case been bored that many times? If it's because an overzealous builder chose to "blueprint" a brand new case by align-boring it on day one, the first cut doesn't count. If someone bolted on an imbalanced clutch and suffered with the vibration for 10,000 miles before addressing the problem, and found a linebore was needed because the crank had been dancing, the overall condition of the case (lifter bore wear, for example) wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as would be expected of a more typical 80,000+ mile interval between align-bores. Perhaps the problem was a hammered thrust caused by poor driving technique (spending extended periods of time idling with the clutch pedal depressed at stoplights, trying to push the crank out the back of the car) and the double-oversized-thrust bearings needed to salvage the case were only available in 3rd-over and up diameter.

There are cases (pun intended) where a 3rd- or 4th-over linebore could still result in a quality build, provided steel-backed center mains are used. Not common, certainly, but possible.