66 square going MS

[raggdout63]

Ok so I have been collecting the parts to build my 66 bus' engine and will be doing MS on that when I get time for it. One of the deals when I bought my bus was that my wife's 66 square would be up and running during that time, which I have no problem with as we love driving our VW's. Well the square's carbs went to garbage with the throttle shafts wearing out. I know they can be rebushed and are actually in the process of getting that done. (someone will be able happy with a newly rebuilt set of carbs.)
I had also started collecting some stock type 3 fuel injection setups and wondering about using most of the parts with a MS brain. Ive done the research and think I have a setup that will work. Here's my list of parts that I will be using:

~Throttle body is a stock type 3 center section, modified to fit a gm IAT sensor, blocked off several of the vacuum/EGR ports. I pulled the stock cold start valve and had a buddy of mine machine in the 3/8npt threads for the IAT.

~The plenum/runners are stock type 3 units cleaned up and painted, along with all the stock injector holder stuff and fuel runners.

~Injectors are stock type 3 injectors, that I've cleaned up and tested.

~I built a V3.0 board and have an MS1 and 2 brains. Not sure which I'll be running yet. Probably starting with just fuel. Also have a relay board and assorted wiring all from DIYautotune.com

~I built a JAW wideband controller a while ago and will be hooking that up as well. For now I have an adapter piece for the collector to muffler for the O2 sensor, which is the VW one that most people use.

~The temp sensor was drilled into the 3/4 head on the #4 side above the exhaust valve spring next to the exhaust outlet.

~Sensors as follows: IAT GM style from DIY, CHT is a GM style coolant sensor from DIY, O2 is a VW golf style wideband sensor (I'll edit the part # in when I remember), TPS is pulled from a Hyundai Tiburon (somewhere around an 2003)

~Fuel pump is an airtex E2000 model. Picked it up at autozone fits an 85 ford ranger EFI 4 cyl.

~Fuel filter is from Mario at the dub shop. Bosch #0450905030, fits a 94 jetta GL 2.0

I'll be posting up photos as I go to help document what I've got going on, as well as to help others. I'll try to post up part numbers and sources where available.

[raggdout63]

Here's a picture of the car right after it came home in Feb of 2010 as a college grad present for my wife.


Photos of progress

Here is the stock type 3 center section that's been modified. IAT installed where old cold start valve was, blocked off several open vacuum and EGR ports.


A side shot of the TPS and IAT. I used a stock TPS and tore it off the backplate and used that to mount the Hyundai TPS to.


Cylinder Head Temp sensor in the 3/4 head on the #4 side. View is from above with the gen removed.


Mock up of the throttle body with the plenums in place, just seeing how well they line up.

[Eaallred]

I think that's going to work very well for you. What TPS did you put on there, IIRC Type 3 throttle body just had a full throttle switch stock?

Are you just going to trigger off the distributor? Not sure how else is feesable to trigger a Type 3 very easily.

[MinamiKotaro]

What TPS did you put on there, IIRC Type 3 throttle body just had a full throttle switch stock?

TPS is pulled from a Hyundai Tiburon (somewhere around an 2003)

I used a stock TPS and tore it off the backplate and used that to mount the Hyundai TPS to.

[raggdout63]

Eric I pulled a TPS off of a Hyundai the junkyard. Has the same D shape as the shaft and size. I cut down the TB shaft about 1/4 to get it to the Hyundai TPS to sit flat.

As for triggering, I'm going to try out just the negative off the coil. I'd like to do a trigger wheel, but dont see how I can without pulling the engine and getting really deep into it. I'm just not sure what I could use easily.

[raggdout63]

you beat me to it MK. haha

[MinamiKotaro]

At one time, I was going to use the stock plenum and TB from a fuel-injected Beetle, and the Hyundai TPS is what people said would work with the TB. Looks like they were right.

[raggdout63]

Today was a long day. I feel like I was in the garage all day, but dont have much to show for it. Oh well.
I started out the day by emptying the fuel tank and pulling it out to get better access under it. Then I pulled out the stock tank outlet and tapped the inside of the outelt for 1/4 NPT. I used the tank adapter that was provided by mario and installed and tightened that down.

I mounted the fuel pump under the tank, just behind the steering box. Allegedly this is where a stock FI type 3 pump was so I figured there would be room for it there.

Next I needed to run the new feed line to the rear of the square. I ran it in the channel that the body to pan bolts run. It's up out of the way so it shouldnt hit on anything. I ran the line over the torsion housing to the engine bay. Obviously there was no way to run this in one length so there are a couple of rubber fuel line connecting points.
I fabbed up a mount for the fuel filter, but the 1/4npt barb isnt going to match up to the stock line for the return. I will probably end up using some 1/4 hose and adapt a 5/16 steel line to 5/16 hose to the barb. Seems a little busy, but if it works I'll do it. I dont want to have to rerun another line for return.
The intake, plenums, and injectors are all bolted in and the fuel line is connected to the #3/4 side injectors.

[Soul]

At one time, I was going to use the stock plenum and TB from a fuel-injected Beetle, and the Hyundai TPS is what people said would work with the TB. Looks like they were right.

A TPS from a KIA will work too, my TPS adapter came from Mario.

[Eaallred]

Yep, i'm blind, lol.

When I was fuel only with my old MS1 I ran off the tach signal and it worked perfectly fine.

[supaninja]

Sweet, I heart MS setups in type 3's! The PO of my notch ran a 3/8 line for the feed and 1/4 for the return (why he just didn't do a 5/16 for both is the $10,000 question). Jegs has some really sweet 3/8-5/16, 5/16-1/4 hose adapters, they are real clean and not too expensive. I did notice that 1/4" hose fits nicely on the fuel pressure regulators nipple(i just wanted to say nipple, hahaha).

looks sweet dude, one thing i recommend doing is having those injectors professionaly cleaned so they have equal flow rates. I watched mine get cleaned and they were friggin nasty.

[Piledriver]

Does your case have the TDC sensor port drilled?
If it is, and it lines up with the 6 bolt holed in the engine side of the flywheel, you probably already have a crank trigger wheel.
(You would still need a modded distributor to tell the MS when #1 was coming up, but that's easy)

6/1 is supported my current MSextra, all processor versions, and can be used for sequential COP/CNP on MS1, or sequential fuel+ignition on MS2&3.

I suggest a hall sensor for the crank and cam (distributor), costs no more, hall sensors work "static" signals work when engine is turned by hand (for setup/troubleshooting) and is far more noise resistant ...a very significant percentage of MS issues are due to VR trigger/noise gremlins.

IMHO the only valid reason to use a VR sensor is if you have one already, and are using EDIS.
(note I didn't say "good" reason)

[raggdout63]

Pile and Ninja thanks for jumping in. I've been following your threads and the throttle shafts on the carbs were the final straw for me. Plus you guys did a good job documenting that I decided to jump in too.

My case is from a 64, so its single relief with no TDC hole. I've thought of just drilling it, but cant bring myself to...... yet

I currently have a pertronix unit in there, is that a hall or VR sensor. I've never been given a straight answer on that. If it is a VR, what can I do for a hall sensor?

Ninja I would love to get my injectors cleaned, but honestly if I do that I'd rather just switch to a newer style injector, but then I'd need to fab up some fuel rails. I actually have 8 injectors, so maybe I should send the other 4 in. Where did you get yours done and what was the cost?

thanks for the info and I'll post up pics of todays progress. I finished plumbing the fuel system.. wooo hoooo.

[supaninja]

Here is where I got my injectors done http://injectorrx.com/ he's local so I got to watch the process, it was pretty neat. Definitely made a huge difference on the flow rates.

[Munchhausen]

I currently have a pertronix unit in there, is that a hall or VR sensor. I've never been given a straight answer on that. If it is a VR, what can I do for a hall sensor?

Easiest way is an stock distributor from FI-bugs or WBX engines. They had hall sensors and no timing adjustment, perfect for EFI-conversion. You can just bold them on an hook it up to the MS, then its just one wire more from MS to the ignition coil to have ignition controlled by MS. Even if you want to go fuel only i would recommand it, cause its just one wire more. Just dial in the simple timingcurve of an 009 distributor into the ECU and you are done for the moment. If you want to go sequential later on you can fab an new triggerwheel for your hall distributor and use it as a cam only trigger. You dont need a crank trigger categorical. Its a great easy solution if you have the cranksensorhole in the case and the right flywheel. IMHO in your case the distributor only thing is the best solution.