VW Engine Build-Off Input Request

deano67 · Post by **deano67** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:12 pm

Hot VWs magazine is interested in exploring the possibility of doing a VW Engine Build-Off, which would showcase a number of different air-cooled VW engine combinations, each compared on a computer-controlled flywheel dyno, during back-to-back tests. Those of you VW engine builders that are SERIOUS, I mean serious, about competing in some sort of engine build-off, I need to hear from you via e-mail. (My address is; [email protected]) I want to hear from only the guys that are capable of providing a complete, ready to run engine to a location in southern California for this test. You are responsible for all shipping/transportation costs of that engine (and yourself!) to and from the dyno location (to be announced - TBA). You are also responsible for all parts that go into that engine. Nothing in the way of parts will be provided in this test. This engine will be under your control before, during and after the test — it belongs to you! I figure this test could happen next winter, giving everyone plenty of time to build an engine.

Now, what that engine is going to be, will be up to the findings of this request. And the tests used (hp, torque, head temp, oil temp, etc), will be up to you beforehand. Now, if I only get four builders, no deal. If I get ten builders with ten completely different ideas, no deal. As a start, I think this engine should be at least 2000cc, but maximum bore size is 94mm (sorry, no 4-inch bores). It should be considered an engine that could be driven on the street and fit into a sedan, and what that exactly means will be (TBA). It is to be aspirated (carburetors, manual fuel injection or EFI), with no turbos, blowers, nitrous, or any other power boosters allowed. It will run on gasoline (with no additives!), supplied at the dyno test, octane rating will be (TBA). It should have a cooling system, a charging system w/fan belt in use, and a muffler(s). This engine will not be placed in a car for performance test, drag racing, mileage or other infield testing. Only the dyno test will be used for this one. Why? Time and money! We are not Road and Track!

So guys, this is your chance to sound off. No one will see these letters other than the staff of Hot VWs. I will give you about two weeks to get in touch with me via the e-mail address found above. The outcome of this test could be a large story in Hot VWs, and the best combination (whatever that means), will get a complete story of what went into one of these engines! If I don't hear from you, I will assume that you are a non-player, and can not, for some reason, able to meet these basic guidelines (travel time, out-of-pocket costs, etc). Hope to hear from you soon, Dean Kirsten/ Hot VWs. My e-mail address is: [email protected]

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:11 am

I have read and re-read your above post and have but one question:

Why do you continue to act like the VW type 4 engine doesn't exist?

Are VW type 4 engines not allowed? I.E. 94 limit; 96mm pistons
fit in the factory cylinders, so my engine should be allowed to be entered.

Thanks for your response.

Don

Blue 1/2 Moon · Post by **Blue 1/2 Moon** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:46 pm

i had to re-read and to me it looks like its a - you do all the work and we get the credit story. Yeah, and why not the type 4?

Post by **doc** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 pm

Maybe I should charge for advertising on STF? No, that would mean the advertisers would have to contact me before they advertised.

I read this a bunch of times yesterday. I am leaving it in case any of the several of our engine builders are legitimately interested. But, it sure does look pretty one sided for all but one lucky winner.

At the same time, HotVWs is the only mag left to us. I'm still a subscriber and I say, hats off to them for some of the good exposure they give the hobby. Perhaps they will one day catch up to where many of the community have already arrived - the TypeIV world.

And, Dean, if you see this, get a proofreader for the mag. A high school kid could do a better job on the errors.

doc

JohnConnolly · Post by **JohnConnolly** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:56 pm

First, it's not a contest (it's a showcase). Second, the T-4 is NOT exempt, I have no idea where you are getting that from. They are still working on finalizing the "rules", and I'm pretty sure the T-4 will have a couple entries.

Their big deal on this is STREET MOTORS, not race engines.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

deano67 · Post by **deano67** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:40 pm

Sorry if I forgot to spell it out..... Type 4s are more than welcome!

juse · Post by **juse** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:30 pm

doc wrote:At the same time, HotVWs is the only mag left to us.

You should try to get a copy of UltraVW - a quite new aircooled magazine from UK. Its been my favourite reading for a while now.
http://www.chpltd.com/ultra_vw/index.html
Justin

Eaallred · Post by **Eaallred** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:05 pm

dstar wrote:I have read and re-read your above post and have but one question:

Why do you continue to act like the VW type 4 engine doesn't exist?

Are VW type 4 engines not allowed? I.E. 94 limit; 96mm pistons
fit in the factory cylinders, so my engine should be allowed to be entered.

Thanks for your response.

Don

There is a thread for this on the CLF as well. I personally have bee pushing for a cc limit instead of a bore and stroke limit that way the Type 4 guys could play since 96's are fairly common.

The rule I proposed was 2400cc limit, and MUST fit in an unmodified sedan body. I even offered up a rear clip of mine to "test fit" the entries to make sure they cleared (it would take 10 seconds per engine to make sure it would fit). Fitting in an uncut body would limit what heads would be used which were some people concern.

But, it seems to fall on deaf ears. Makes great sense to me, but everyone else seems to think it's a bad idea. Go figure.

Eaallred · Post by **Eaallred** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:13 pm

Here are the rules I proposed. I personally feel this would produce the widest variety of motors that can prove them selves to run cool enough on the street and highway with parts that anyone can obtain and build themselves if they have the money/talent.

But, it seems a lot of people want a lot of parimeters to be the same from one motor to the next. Bore limit of 94, stroke limit of 82, intake valve limit of 44, etc. I personally think that limits like this is going to create a lot of similar motors which personally makes me ill. This could be a HUGE thing to say the least, but not if people are seeing almost the exact same motor from one page to another.

Re: Engine Builder Build-off
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2006, 01:37:30 pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to keep it as "open" as possible myself. Get as many different combo's out here as possible.

Here's what i've come up with so far, let me know what you think, Deano:

* 2400cc limit
* Type 1 and Type 4 motors allowed.
* Aftermarket cases, heads, etc allowed as long as it meets all other rules.

* All engines run off same tank of gas (builders will know what octane before hand, and can make preperations for it)

* Must run muffler and belt.
* The engine is dyno'd and temperature tested as it will run in the car

* All parts used on motor must be avaliable to general public.
* Any 'custom' camshaft grind must be listed in detail, etc
* All engines showcased must be avaliable to be built by general public unless it
is a part/product that has nothing to do with the performance/cooling of said
motor

* Must fit in standard VW sedan without requiring body modifications.
* Engine should fit reasonably in sedan body (Mike Shelden's car for example
would be about the limit. No "firm" rule here, but must be reasonable.

* Cooling system must be sealed from top and bottom
* These engines are presumably to be installed in street cars, so must maintain
a complete enough cooling system in order for it to function properly in a
sedan body.

* All engines will run same temperature measuring equipment
* same gauges and senders used will ensure consistancy between engines
* Sustained load must be run in order to determine "highway cruising" temperature
* I am in favor of a 50hp load @ 3500rpm myself.

The 'feature' will show the engine's dyno numbers/graph along with oil and head temps from the sustained load test

Extensive engine build list will be mandatory. Enough for the reader to know exactly what goes into the motor.

I think this keep the rules firm enough to make sure that whatever engine enters the showcase will be a representation of a "street" motor, as well as be flexible enough to allow a LOT of different combinations and idea's to be represented and shown off.

If there absolutley must be a "winner" (I would still prefer there not be, JMHO), I belive it should be a "peoples choice" via mail-in voting by magazine readers.

Clatter · Post by **Clatter** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:57 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't a motor that is designed to run well on the street an altogether different animal than one that will make the biggest dyno pull?

This would be an interesting challenge...
Cool running and big power with longevity measured in minutes!

Maybe make the pull number averages from 800 RPM to redline?

Eaallred · Post by **Eaallred** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:28 am

My idea was to simply publish the dyno graph with each motor. Let the reader decide from that what would be the 'best' street motor for themselves. No declared 'winner', because everybody's street application is different.

dstar · Post by **dstar** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:44 am

IF there would be no *winner*, then it isn't a *build-off.
It is a showcase* for the builders.

That would be good for both the magazine and the builders!

Anyone got links to the threads on the other forums?
(I feel so dirty asking for that.......)

Don

Lees73Super · Post by **Lees73Super** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:58 am

I think another important faactor to be included in the article would be the build cost for each engine. That would allow the reader to match his budget to the performance he can afford. Sure one of the builders may be able to get 300 N/A horsepower out of an engine for 8-10k, but at least the readers could get perspective as to what each level of horsepower costs. (assuming all the the builders are building quality engines with reasonable longevity)

bugnut68 · Post by **bugnut68** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:31 pm

doc wrote:Maybe I should charge for advertising on STF? No, that would mean the advertisers would have to contact me before they advertised.

I read this a bunch of times yesterday. I am leaving it in case any of the several of our engine builders are legitimately interested. But, it sure does look pretty one sided for all but one lucky winner.

At the same time, HotVWs is the only mag left to us. I'm still a subscriber and I say, hats off to them for some of the good exposure they give the hobby. Perhaps they will one day catch up to where many of the community have already arrived - the TypeIV world.

And, Dean, if you see this, get a proofreader for the mag. A high school kid could do a better job on the errors.

doc

I call BS on the proofreading issue, no way is it as bad as you claim. As far as I can tell, car people don't really pay that critical attention to the typography and I stand by my claim that Hot VWs does a decent job. Trends, however, was god awful in that department, as monthly addresses and phone numbers were reported wrong, hence a very regular prominence of "Dept. of Corrections." I suspect that probably didn't make a lot of the advertisers very happy.
As one who works in the journalism field, I can attest that it is tough to have things 100 percent perfect all the time...and those who are most critical are no more capable of achieving that perfection.

The Burnout King · Post by **The Burnout King** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:43 am

Eaallred wrote:
dstar wrote:I have read and re-read your above post and have but one question:

Why do you continue to act like the VW type 4 engine doesn't exist?

Are VW type 4 engines not allowed? I.E. 94 limit; 96mm pistons
fit in the factory cylinders, so my engine should be allowed to be entered.

Thanks for your response.

Don
There is a thread for this on the CLF as well. I personally have bee pushing for a cc limit instead of a bore and stroke limit that way the Type 4 guys could play since 96's are fairly common.

The rule I proposed was 2400cc limit, and MUST fit in an unmodified sedan body. I even offered up a rear clip of mine to "test fit" the entries to make sure they cleared (it would take 10 seconds per engine to make sure it would fit). Fitting in an uncut body would limit what heads would be used which were some people concern.

But, it seems to fall on deaf ears. Makes great sense to me, but everyone else seems to think it's a bad idea. Go figure.

Not to start a huge flame but Rich Dicksons 88x96.9 fits in the engine compartment on his DRKC .... So I doubt engine size would really affect that.... Watermellon in a sandwich bag