Low budget Oxyboxer,suggestions & comments welcome pleas

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:39 am

Hi all,after a long search for a cheap 2.1 DJ to play with,i've finally found one.
The plan is to build a low budget oxyboxer for our split bus.With plenty of grunt,touring ability,high speed cruising and acceleration being more important than top speed or out and out power.
The thoughts are retaining 94mm bore,using aftermarket T1 barrels,possibly keeping the stock pistons,keeping the stock crank and rods,T4 200mm flywheel,possibly 5 dowelled,and of course balancing the bottom end. maybe using stock hydraulic lifters,aftermarket T1 cam,T1 heads maybe 044s with 40 and 35.5mm valves,stock WBX filter location,but not sure about oil cooler,maybe an external cooler with feeds taken directly off case.
As for induction and exhaust,I've got a nice 1 5/8ths tubular system,I won't be running heat exchangers.On the inlet side I was thinking of a home brewed EFI set up.

What do you all think? Obviously hi po aftermarket parts cost,as does machining,so the minimum of both the better.Hence the use of as many stock parts as possible.I was thinking that 150-170BHP should be possible,with reliability.depending on factors like cam,heads and CR.
Your suggestions and reasons are very welcome

51MAN · Post by **51MAN** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:19 am

Hey beelzibus
Dont throw them pistons and rings.. (leave the rings on!!)
Speak to Laurie Pettit in the UK he might give you summat for them...

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:19 am

If I can use the pistons 51man I will,if I can't then don't worry I won't be binning them.
Many thanks to everyone else for your informative replies.

MnMike · Post by **MnMike** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:08 pm

I think the reason you are getting so many informative replies is because you are asking for advice on a budget water to air, and it is not a budget conversion unless you have access to a machine shop. You sound like you essentially want a stock wasser, but aircooled so it is torqueee and doesn't mod you bus up too much, right? Well I have only started my first conversion, and mine is far differnt from yours. I think if you are determined to do it, tear down your engine and send the case out to have the studs relocated. Use a stock cam and lifters that have been reground, and get some ratio rockers for more lift. 40mmx 35mm valves in some quality hand ported heads. You can go cheap and have the bottoms of your 94s trimmed to fit the wbx case, or get some adapter rings. I think you will find the 94s will run a little hot in a bus, but it is just a guess. Personally, I would go with 90.5s or 88 cylinders in a heavy type 2. I think a 2110 type one would be just as cheap when all is said and done.........with better cooling and more torque from the longer stroke.

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:13 pm

MnMike,many thanks dude,for your time.
Let me explain a couple of things as I see them,
to build a decent T1 2110, i'm in for a new aluminium case,then machining for stroker clearancing,barrel openings,full flow,and possibly other bits and bobs.Then a forged stroker crank.then the oil system bits,filter head,bigger sump.That little lot is going to set me back about £800plus,if I go oxy,the case and crank are covered,as is the proper filter and deeper sump in one hit.I've been searching a long while,my core 2.1 has cost me £95. Agreed i'm now in for a heavy machining bill,but I have an ace machinist whos estimated £300 for the case and B & P mods.The heads cam,lifters,flywheel,B&P,induction and exhaust don't come into it,I have to buy them whichever route I go.As far as I see it i'm going to get better long term reliability from basically stock VW quality bits,case/crank/rods and flywheel,than more expensive aftermarket bits.At a cheaper price.For my aplication (a mid weight split camper,with lower than average frontal area)I think a high torque moderate hp motor should be ideal.I'm in a temperate climate,so coolings not such an issue as say CA.
I guess what i'm really after is suggestions on cam choice,head spec and the CR. Also oil cooler feed,which is best a sandwich plate with radiused outlets or drilling the galleries? I'm happy to spend out on the right cam,and new lifters,i'm not a cheapskate,just trying to achieve lots with minimum spend.Enginuity over inovation.
Does anyone know if I can use the DJ pistons in aftermarket 94 barrels?what about deck heights and stuff?Am I right in thinking that I can set the deckheight and CR fairly easily as I have to sink the barrels into the case plenty due to the extra case width.
Also Mike,what are you saying about longer stroke in a 2110 T1,surely they are the same 76 x 94?

MnMike · Post by **MnMike** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:55 pm

I had a 2110 in my bug, 82x90.5 no auxillary cooler, just the doghouse. if you kept revs lower than 4000 rpm it stayed cool in the hot summer months. When I upgraded to 94 bore I had to drive at 3600 rpm or add a cooler. The 94s just have less fin surface area to cool. I see your resoning now, that is pretty cheap for machine work, go for it. I would definately consider 044 heads on a 94mm bore street engine, especially a bus. And keep the valves and ports smaller for better low speed port velocity, that makes torque to move that big ol type 2. If you can post pics of your progress.......

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:52 am

Thanks for that Mike,i've spoken to a couple of people and 044 heads seem to be the common suggestion,for near stock cooling,with 40 and 35.5 valves for torque. As for cams opinions are divided,although Engle 120s have been mentioned.
As far as cooling goes I was planning on modded upright bits,not sure wether to mount a T1 or T4 cooler in the normal position above the case on a bracket,or run a non doghouse shroud and mount the cooler elsewhere.If so where?Alternatively if cooling is an issue I could go for a Porsche fan,but certain people say that they can easily cool too much,especially in my climate.Then theres the $$$.

MnMike · Post by **MnMike** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:08 pm

For the cam, if you are running the redux boxes still and not too tall of tires the 120 should be ok. But you said it is a camper, I know in the UK almost anything is considered a camper, but if it is a westy and you are going to load it up with lots of stuff I say no bigger than a 110, to keep the low end. As far as lifters, you have to have a hydraulic cam if you keep the stock lifters. If you use an aftermarket cam like a engle 110 or 120 you must sleeve the lifter bores and use type 1 lifters. You might try calling someone who builds type one hydraulic lifter cam+lifter combos and tell them what you are doing. I think 1 1/2 exaust, you would be surprised how much a little back pressure helps make low rpm throttle response. Hopefully some bus guys will chime in on this, I haven't built an engine for a type 2, but i was planning one for my 61 DC until I sold it a couple weeks ago. I was gonna run 90.5 x 82 2110cc with scat mini Ds a 110cam 8:1 comp with 48 drlas and an auxilly oil cooler with the stock doghouse too, my DC was light and had a bug axle in it with low profile tires all the way aroundso I don't think it would have run hot, or had too little torque to push it around. It actually moved out pretty good with a 1600 dp with stock carb.

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:23 pm

Thanks again Mike,perhaps we should be on instant messanger LOL.
The bus is a 15 window hardtop deluxe,lowered all round,straight axle on rear,no reduction boxes.The transmision is a US spec 68 T3 squareback FI box,Even with a clunker 1600TP,I've seen the thing right off the speedo a no of times.I'm running four wheel Porsche 944 vented discs,so no worries there,my tyres are 185x55 on the front,I think i've worked it out that i've seen 104mph on the old girl.

On the back I think the tyres are 195x60,all on 51/2J Porsche steel spacesavers.
As for weight,well its a home built camper,not the lightest,not the heaviest either.And our "Camping" is usually just fun weekends away with minmal stuff,not 3000 mile adventures fully loaded.
A couple of pics.As you can see originality is not an issue.

A couple of pics.As you can see originality is not an issue.

MnMike · Post by **MnMike** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:32 am

That thing is awesome here is the DC I sold...........

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:21 am

Must've been a hard choice to sell that.Nice patina.

MnMike · Post by **MnMike** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:40 am

I really agonized over it for a couple of years, when I started building a new engine, the choice was easy, I am a speed freak first and a bus guy second.... when are you gonna start/finish your wasser/air project? After seeing your truckand knowing your application, I would think you could go a little wild with it, maybe a 120 cam, and possibly a little bigger on the ports then I originally suggested...

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:01 pm

One thing i'm not sure about is lifters,partly to save on maintenence,and partly to save on machining i was going to use hydraulic lifters as stock.But thinking about it,i might struggle on cams.
Also as a quicker alternative to EFI in terms of being on the road in use,I'm thinking about bolting on carbs short term.I can always sell them on later.So what type 40s or 45s? Dellortos are in mind for mileage.
The project starts as soon as I have time.Next month or so.Maybe final building/fitting next winter.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:27 pm

MnMike wrote:I really agonized over it for a couple of years, when I started building a new engine, the choice was easy, I am a speed freak first and a bus guy second....

but arent these completely compatible ?

beelzibus · Post by **beelzibus** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:41 pm

Hey Mike,someone else is butting into our private conversation!!

Only joking.LOL