Big Waterboxer combinations

[Joe vw]

I'm talking watercooled. Does anyone have experience with a stroked Wasser? What is the largest combo using more stroke while still using the stock pistons, shaved and possibly shorter rods? I realize compression ratio must be taken into account. What did your ratio end up?
I have also read that a low compression 2.1 piston is made, any experience with these? Where can I get them in the USA.
Also, has anyone used the AAA 95mm pistons and compared them to stock? Hows the quality?

[Guest]

Hi,

Well, all the US "MV" code 2.1 engines has the "low compression" pistons.
The so called "high compression" pistons are used mainly in the European cars it is the 2.1 "DJ" engine code with 10.5:1 comp ratio.They produce 112HP and the US 95HP.Oettinger largest wbx combo is 82x98 for about 2500cc.Oettinger can produce even now these but they will cost almost a leg and a arm.A nice upgrade is to use Yamaha motorcycle 97mm pistons...

[wbx]

Well, i guess i can answer some of these:

The AAA 95mm pistons are sketchy. I used these in an engine i built (82 stroke x 95 bore), and using stock rods, ended up with a 10.5:1 CR. Running mid grade fuel, i still blew up that motor in about 6k miles due to detonation. The pistons were shaved 0.120" off the top, but the cylinders were slightly out of round and had to be honed to get them right. The alloy is suspect, and i probably won't be inclined to look at using them again. However, i know where they are currently sitting and could probably be purchased from if you want to experiment.

Current engine setup is with the same 82 crank, but now 94mm pistons... can't remember if they are cofap or mahle, which actually makes a difference. One of them does provide a lower compression ratio than the other. I think cofap ends up with the lower CR. These pistons were shaved about 0.100", i believe, and the heads were opened up 15cc (i think). Can you tell i built the first engine, and had the second one built by a pro? Current CR is a more manageable 9.2:1 CR.

If i had the bucks and more time, i'd bug the crap out of John Connolly at aircooled.net and get him to provide the 97mm squishies he has mentioned a few times. I've tried to get them several times over the last year, but no luck so far. And now, no $$$ even if i could.

Having talked with others who have "hopped up" wbx engines, there are several people running the AAA pistons with 50k miles or so. I've also talked to people who have used custom shorter rods (which messes with the stroke to rod length ratio), and also those who have offset ground the crank to chevy journals. This gives you a whole slew of piston possibilities, too, but is something i know jack squat about.

The first engine i built felt great and had all the power i wanted (which isn't a ton, but enough to move my westy). Preliminary on-road dyno runs (with one of those G-Tech dynos) showed about 125hp. The new engine, still being broken in, still has yet to be tuned correctly, and hasn't given the driving pleasure the old one had. Yet. I'm sure it is in there, i just need to get the FI to cooperate. If you are a tuning whiz, i could sure use a hand!

Hope that helps some!

[Piledriver]

Are you running Johns chip and SCAT rockers?

Supposed to be good in an MV for ~135 HP, otherwise stock.

Otherwise, bug Ray Greenwood on the fuel injection forum, D/L-jet and general EFI guru.

And do you suspect the piston alloy or the jugs? (I read "jugs", but I have been wrong before)

This topic is something I am looking at closely, as the 2.1 in the vanagon nears 250K miles...

Still not burning a drop of oil, but I suspect the rod big ends are stretched based on reading, and my oil pressure, which is still OK, but below stock spec.

I'm praying for a drop in kit, with h-beams (3/8" ARP bolts) for longer life rods. (and bored factory jugs/exchange)

Having said that, the stock MV pistons have HUGE dishes, and appear to be trimmable the 3mm or so that would be required to go from 76>82 stroke.

If shipping from Canada wasn't such a PITA, I would consider your 95 pistons, and have a set of factory jugs bored.

Still occasionally look for a part# for those Yamaha 97s, all we have established so far is they are for a snowmoblile...

[wbx]

Are you running Johns chip and SCAT rockers?

Having said that, the stock MV pistons have HUGE dishes, and appear to be trimmable the 3mm or so that would be required to go from 76>82 stroke.

I am not using either product. Stock rockers and 1.9 ECU (engine is in an '84). To open up the breathing, i did go with a pair of big-valve heads, and according to the builder, ratio rockers chew up the valves. For the ECU, i am trying out both the US spec digijet ECU and the euro spec ECU. Interesting differences between the two, but i have yet to notice a real power difference (the euro goes full rich sooner than the US spec, but doesn't use the O2 sensor...).

My suspicions with the 95mm AAA piston/cylinder setup suspicion lies with the pistons (not jugs), but this is mostly speculative, more than anything else. Like i said, there seem to be a lot of people using these for several K miles.

From my experience, and actually dynoing my engine mods, i find it really far-fetched to think rockers and a chip will put out 135HP. With a way-too-high CR, big valves and .2L more displacement, i was getting an honest 125hp at the rear wheels.

Regarding shaving down the pistons, be careful with this. On my current engine, the machinist with a lot of experience in this didn't want to go past .100" (or was it .090"?) because he felt they would get too thin. Also, remember that you are cutting away dish, too, so you don't drop the CR as much as you think you would (see 10.5:1 engine example). My builder and i came to the conclusion that stroking a wbxer reliably is just a pain in the ass.

Now if you wanted to build a kick ass wbx, you should do all the high-strength drop-in stuff (h-beams, etc.), keep it 2.1 with all the german stuff, and throw a turbo on it. If i were to do my project over again, this is what i'd do.

[51MAN]

Mmmmm

I have a MV spec engine (in bits) waiting for me to collect, I am considering building it up for more torque.. so bigger pistons would be good..
Can the stock cyls be bored much??
How big a piston will go in without major case surgery?
Is there much of a market for some 98mm cyls??

I heard that Porsche pistons can be used...??

Ideally to keep costs down... I would want to keep the std throw crank..

[Piledriver]

Awhile back I contacted a rebuilder that had Wiseco make them some custom WBX pistons in 97mm(for 76 crank), and sells the pistons and bored jugs for ~$600 US. (IIRC they want core jugs, so maybe cost you an extra $100)

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=80014

With the exchange rate the way it is, it's probably a GREAT deal for you, add a set of John C. H-beams (24mm pin, T1 otherwise, 3/8" ARP bolts) and you are SET.

[Wally]

Found this on a german board (bugnet.de):
Hope you guys understand a little german, but most key measures will probably be understandable.
IMHO, its always interesting to read what combo's other engine builders use.

schweren herzens wegen projektänderung abzugeben jetzt mit preisnachlass:
komplett einbaufertiger 2,5 liter wasserboxer (erst 100 km gelaufen) für einbau in käfer oder bus t2. der umbau auf wasserkühlung bleibt hierbei weitestgehend verborgen
zu den motordaten:
motor komplett neu gelagert und abgedichtet
82 mm oettinger chromo kurbelwelle mit gegengewichten
nagelneue 98 mm yamaha wiseco motorrad schmiedekolben (konkurrenzlos leicht+kurz) und zylinder
maximal bearbeitete zylinderköpfe mit 43 Einlass / 37,5 Auslass
maximal bearbeitetete und angepasste 48er scat ansaugbrücken
cb chrommoly pleuel
enlgle w 140
verschraubte kipphelbelwellen mit porsche einstellschrauben
gerade verzahntes nockenwellenrad
erleichterte scat stössel
leistung ist garantiert mehr als im überfluss vorhanden:ähnlich wie 2,7 liter typ 4, jedoch thermisch unempfindlicher, minimum 210 konservativ geschätzte din ps.
drehmoment: >260Nm!
ultraleichter zahnriemenantrieb mit suzuki gsxr 1100 lichtmaschine
ahnendorp fächer.
das gute: der motor ist noch im käfer verbaut und kann natürlich von ernsthaften interessenten probegefahren werden.interessant für die bullyfreaks:er lässt sich schon ab leerlaufdrehzahl ruckfrei beschleunigen. für die käfer und typ 3 freaks: der motor reagiert spontan aufs gaspedal und lässt sich bei ausschalten des rationalen zentrums oder besser gesagt verstandes ggf. auch per wheelie in unter fünf sekunden auf hundert beschleunigen. der motor wurde nachweisbar professioniell von einem bekannten motorentuner zusammengesteckt, der selbst einen sehr schönen dragster käfer fährt. von meiner seite wirken noch ca. 10 lange jahre erfahrung mit wasserboxern mit, daher möchte ich behaupten, dass der motor wirklich den höchsten qualitativen massstäben gerecht wird und alle komponenten sorgfälltig ausgewählt wurden
festpreis 3600 euro nun aber inklusive vergaser, angepassten ahnendorp fächer, zündung, erleichtertem 228er ahnendorp schwungrad + fichtel&sachs kupplung sowie allen dazugehörigen wasserleitungen / kühler.
bitte errechnet mal den teilewert! alle verbauten teile sind neu bzw. neuwertig
preis gültig bis 31.12.04 danach wird alles zerlegt und in einzelteilen veräussert.
auf anfrage auch kpl mit guterhaltenen lichtgrauen 69er au freien faltdachkäfer mit schräglenkerbodengruppe, centerlyine-stylefelgen, spaxdämpfern, verstellbare vorderachse, 67er cabriohaube, lichtgrauer original kunstlederausstattung usw.
anfragen per e-mail oder 0176 211 230 38

I surely don't want to translate it all, but if you have a simple phraze you are curious about, just ask and I will see what I can come up with
Regards,
Walter

[Piledriver]

Via babelfish...

heavy heart because of change of project to deliver now with discount: 2.5 litres completely ready to be installed more wasserboxer (only 100 km run) for installation in beetles or bus t2. the change on water cooling remains here as far as possible hidden to the engine data: engine completely again stored and sealed 82 mm more oettinger chromo crankshaft with counterweights brand-new 98 mm yamaha wiseco motorcycle forging piston (competitionless leicht+kurz) and cylinders of maximally worked on cylinder heads with 43 inlet/37.5 discharge opening maximally bearbeitetete and adapted 48er scat suck in-bridge cb chrommoly piston rod enlgle w 140 bolted kipphelbelwellen interlocked nockenwellenrad straight with Porsche adjusting screws facilitated scat tappets
achievement is guarantees more than in the abundance vorhanden:aehnlich like 2.7 litres type 4, however thermally more insensitive, minimum 210 conservatively estimated DIN HP torque: 260Nm! more ultralightly generator toothed belt-propelled ahnendorp fan the good with suzuki gsxr 1100: the engine is still in the beetle blocked and can naturally from serious prospective customers rehearse-driven will-interesting for more bullyfreaks:er can starting from idling speed be accelerated without jerking for the beetles and type 3 freaks: the engine reacted spontaneously on the accelerotor pedal and can be switched off with the rational center or be accelerated better said understanding if necessary also by wheelie in under five seconds on one hundred the engine demonstrably professioniell by a well-known more motorentuner was plugged together, to that a very beautiful dragster beetle drives from my side works still approx.. I would like to maintain 10 long years experience with wasserboxern also, therefore that the engine really the highest qualitative yardsticks fairly will and all components were sorgfaelltig selected

fixed price 3600 euro now however inclusive carburetors, adapted ahnendorp fan, ignition, relieved 228er ahnendorp flywheel + fichtel&sachs clutch as well as all pertinent water pipelines/coolly please calculates times that divide-worth! all blocked divide are again and/or newly price valid to 31.12.04 thereafter everything one divides and in individual parts sold on inquires also kpl with good-received light-grey 69er outer free folded slab roof beetle also diagonally steering wheel understructure, centerlyine stylefelgen, spaxdaempfern, adjustable front axle, 67er cabriohaube, light-grey original imitation leather equipment etc. inquire by email or 0176 211,230 38

[regis101]

Joe vw. There is some good reading on Gowesty.com dealing with the Wasser engines.

[krautwagen]

http://www.gowesty.com/new_engine.htm

These guys know how to build WBX motors with more torque and HP.

Read up on the engines they are building, and you will see just how possible it is to stroke 'em

Later

[Roben]

I emailed them and they told me of a distributor 20 miles from my house.

[farmer]

Hello.
125 RW hp is equivallent for about 145 on the flywheel (!) That should make even a camper pretty snappy.
While big cc´s are always fun, it is however quite consuming to do that in a WBX. On the other hand The MV engines are so in need of a turbo Take the heads off, modify the pistons slightly and also the combustion chamber, so you reduce static Compression to just under 9 - 1 (8,5 would be nice, but requires some work.
Even the stock cam works well with turbo or choose a Web 119 for it. Swop the springs to dual type 1.

The trick is to find the correct size turbo and get an intercooler efficient on the car . Buy a decent F.I. system and get the whole thing. Then you will soon be able to have 170-180 hp and loads of torque just under your right foot. And its reliable if you do it right.
T

[Piledriver]

Plenty of room for CIS...

[joop]

http://cgi.ebay.de/Kafer-Motor-Typ1-WBX ... 43a354f12b

I think its the same