Drag Racing suspension

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:15 pm

I'm new to VW stuff, so I have no idea that I need for suspension. I'm going to have a heavier engine in the back, maybe around 300 to 400 pounds. I know thats not going to do very well off the line because the nose coming off the ground. What sort of suspension would I need for the heavy of an engine but at the same time, work for drag racing? This is also going to be a streetable car so nothing to insane or that will kill my handling. Thanks

Bugzlife · Post by **Bugzlife** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:19 am

ok, my question is "heavier engine" is this a transplant engine other than the flat four?

once we know this we can proceed.

also is this going to be an IRS or Swing set up?

most people are going to the bigger bars in the rear, and trying to advoid the snubbers(impact) when the rear squats.

28-to 30mm bars are common for Swing axle :short bar" set-ups.
the 50/50 internal valved adjustable shocks from Aircooled .net
limit straps on the rear shocks to keep the swing axles from tucking upon weight transfer when decelerating or if you get a crosswind.

also you will need some sort of engine support bar to stop the wheel hop from occuring, Air speed sells them and they bolt to the trans support bracket and the shock horns,

you may have to make your own version of the rear engine support bar to fit your Buick V6

(guessing)

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:29 pm

Not quite a Buick V6. Try a Ford 2.3 Turbo. I think it will be closer to 300 pounds. Well, I don't exactly have the car yet but I'm working on it. Swing axles are more common then IRS aren't they? (I'm a newb) So just for ideas, we'll go with swing. Tell me what ya think from that.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:15 pm

Also, what do you think I should go with for the heavier trans mounts? http://empius.com/t/transsupportsmounts.html I've been looking aorund there and thats what I've found. Any guidence with those? The solid steel strap kit, just urethane mounts? What do you think for lets say 350 poudns worth of engine and 180 or so horse? I havn't been able to find what you were talking about on aircooled.net but I'll hunt on Empi.

Bugzlife · Post by **Bugzlife** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:19 am

1.Ok, how much money do you have available to spend?
I mean do you have "enough or are you on a shoe-string Budget?
2.Is this going to be a street car? or a drag car?

TKisner · Post by **TKisner** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:17 pm

Dyne mind if I ask why you are throwing a buick V6 in? From what i've read on these forums every 12lbs is equivalent to 1hp or so so with a 300lb heaver 180 horsepower engine it would be the equivalent of a 155hp beetle motor which is easily attainable with off the shelf components nowadays. Also with less horsepower and weight you are less likely to be breaking the transmission. In addition to which you wouldn't have to worry about the extra weight upsetting your weight distribution and handling or fitment issues due to the larger motor. Your new to bugs so I figured I'd just tell you that you can make big hp with VW motor. It means so much more when you beat them with an ACVW motor than with a buick V6.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:49 pm

The thing is, I would love to build a VW engine like that, but I have no idea how to go about that with a VW. And its a 2.3 Turbo Ford not a Buick V6. I've never worked on a VW engine before and don't know how to go about making horsepower with one. I've heard of going with a massive type 4 but I don't exactly have that kind of money. So how much would to cost me to build a 200 horse VW? 1835cc of engine is what I have. I've got dual 40 mm carbs on it also. They need tuned though. Just put them on. Well, what can I do from here to build that much horse? And how much will tha cost me?

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:13 pm

How fast do you think you HAVE to run? How much money do you have? Can you work on a Pinto? If you can, you can work on a VW! It is simply a matter of learning just like you learned about Pintos! Running what you have is cheaper than buying a pinto. $400 for an adapter $200 for a Pinto is $600 you can spend on what you have! Get the carbs tuned by someone if you can't. You will be running brackets so speed and ET are just numbers! What you want is consistancy! It doesnt't really matter how fast it is if you can run the same number time after time you will be a winner!

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:22 pm

I'd really like to run something in the 12 second 1/4 miles. Something fast yet streetaable. I realize I can just spend the $600 on the engine but think about it. $600 for... I don't know, maybe around 100 horse. OR, $600 for 170 horse. Keep it coming with the advice!

GDRBO · Post by **GDRBO** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:32 pm

That $600 for 170 HP May not get you in the 12s and then you will need another grand for the suspension and tires to hook it up? Your 1835 Might get you close if you spend the $600 on suspension now. Besides if you run 14s the fun lasts longer! You can always go bigger, better and faster later! Get to having fun soon!

TKisner · Post by **TKisner** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:35 pm

If you can work on a 2.3 Turbo you can work on a VW. Hell if you can work on a lawnmower your pretty much set. First thing I would reccomend as for learning how to work on a motor buy a How to Rebuild Your VW's Motor, VW Performance Handbook, and a Bently Manual. http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/catsea ... V&perpage= All of which can be purchased at that link.

As for how to make big power i'd say go with a stroker. With a stroker you dont have to rev as high to make the same amount of power as a smaller motor which allows you to get better longevity. My reccomendation for a motor is 2176cc motor. This motor uses 94mm Pistons and 78.4mm stroker. Their are larger strokes but this size allows you to use the stock rods and keep the budget down while giving you the maximum displacement and a decent rod ratio.

As for a cam I'd reccomend an Engle 120 or 125. With these cams assuming your heads can support them your motor will probably redline at 7500 which is good because the higher you rev the more expensive valvetrain components you need to properly control the valve so by keeping your revs relatively low you save money and your motor last longer your only sacrifice is a small amount of power.

Use straight cut cam gears. The stock ones are helical cut to reduce noise by using straight cam gears you free up a little power.

Chromoly pushrods are a must as stock will bend above 5,000 RPM. + you will need custom length pushrods to attain proper rocker arm geometry.

A lightened stock flywheel will be able to handle as much power as you can throw at it assuming that it is 8 dowelled. They are strong quality pieces the new cast ones will shatter on you. Standard Cima/Mahle pistons are all you need. There's your shortblock.

As for heads I would reccomend CB Wedgeports there are multiple street motors making over 200hp with these off the shelf. Not only that they cost less than $800. Now you have a longblock.

All thats left is carburation, ignition, cooling tin, and exhaust.
Carburetion-From what i've read the only carburetors that can flow enough CFM to support the heads are 48IDF's, 48IDA's, 48 Dells.

Stock doghouse cooling tin is adequate for all you cooling needs.

For your ignition I would reccomend a mallory distributor. They are the highest quality on the market with a mulititude of options to best suit your specific needs.

Exhaust this is a stroker motor so most people would reccomend between a 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 exhaust.

What i've written should make about 170hp and be plently fast. There are thousands of possible combinations out there this is merely one. If anyone disagrees with what I wrote please speak up because I dont want to mislead anyone. Thanks

TKisner · Post by **TKisner** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:40 pm

$600 for... I don't know, maybe around 100 horse. OR, $600 for 170 horse. Keep it coming with the advice!

The 2.3 not only will be a bitch to fit but would add alot of weight which would negate a majority of the hp you gained by doing the swap in the first place. Have you thought about where your putting the radiator and all associated plumbing? With a Volkswagen motor you could run the same time with less horsepower due to the lighter weight. With less horsepower and weight you are less likely to be breaking the transmission. Finding a transmission that could handle the 2.3 will be very expensive. Wasn't your whole reason of getting the 2.3 cheap speed? The transmission your gonna need will diminish any money you "saved".

ErikTheRed · Post by **ErikTheRed** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:54 pm

Dyne-- if you are looking for help you need to answer some of the questions being asked. Nobody can help you without more info. What year car? Swing or IRS? What is your total budget? Street car or race car?

For example, $600 and your 1835 in a streeter will not be a 12 second car. More reasonably, a 15 second car. Dump some cash into that 1835 and drop it in a gutted race car, and 12's are possible. No offense, but trying to outfit a bug with a Ford 2.3 is not going to be easy, and certainly not cheap. You can avoid all the BS by putting together a stout 1835 turbo motor or some such thing and have fun whoopin butt on the streets OR the track. Its up to you, but that transplant deal probably isnt the way to go. Just my opinion.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:15 am

I've got a swing axle, and its a 1964. I've been busy lately so I havn't gotten around to posting. I'm in the middle of moving so my time has been to packing stuff. I've worked out the radiator thing already. I've talked to people that have done the project before and said that handling wasnt really that terrible. I know it would take a hell of a lot more money to build a VW engine and thats why I wanted to go with the Ford. Cheap, simple and easy. I've also been told that the trans really wasn
t that much of a issue. This is also going to be a street car. Thanks for the run down on a 170 horse engine. One thing you missed though. How much time, money and all that will have to go into it to make that engine? I wish I could buy a crate engine but i havn't really found a place sells a crate VW engine like that. And stuffing the ford engine in really doesn't have a problem with room. I've been told that its a quick, simple and easy project.

TKisner · Post by **TKisner** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:08 am

Whoever told you the trans wasn't an issue is crazy. A motor like that would be under $3500 if you search around on the samba for deals. You can buy used performance motors real cheap.