GETTING THE "cam" SHAFT from VW munufactures.

Do you like to go fast? Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast.
Mark H
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GETTING THE "cam" SHAFT from VW munufactures.

Post by Mark H »

This is a responce to a "FLAT CAM" question that I thought I'd share. VW cam blanks are not the same anymore.

"Did your cam go flat or did the lifters wear away ?? Most likely your lifters are waisted. This is because you can not use any lifter but a SCAT anymore because all the cam blanks are harder now. Especially the SCAT blanks. They should have told you that normal lifters would be destroyed by their cam. Unless you bought it from someone else.

HERES THE DEAL , ALL NEW CAM BLANKS ARE HARDER THAN BEFORE.
USE ONLY THE NEW SCAT LIFTERS WITH THESE NEW CAM BLANKS. NO LONGER CAN BRAZILLIAN,GERMAN OR ANY LIFTER OTHER THAN A SCAT BE USED IN A VW MOTOR.

Yes I`m sure there are plenty of people who are going to say "but", "but".
The fact is that ALL new cam blanks are harder, including Engle, Eagle,WEB,Scat and anyone else using a CWC cam blank (ES-12,EP-12 or whatever).

The new SCAT lifters are also harder. All the older lifters ( Mahle, Premium,riosulense, Brazillian, the "made in western Germany", Johnson, Eaton, are all too soft to use with these new cam blanks.
If you use these lifters with a new cam you are almost garrenteed to have 8 destroyed lifters. It all depends on spring tension amung other things.

CB, WEB and others use repackaged SCAT lifters. If you are not sure you are getting Scat lifters with with your new cam then order them seperately.

I don`t want to sound like I'm a SCAT salesman. Its just that because of all the "flat cam " rumors a few years ago certain people took it apon themselves to FIX a problem that did not exsist!! The problem a VERY FEW people had a few years back was that the OIL we use was changed. The EPA took all the metals out to protect catalitic converters and this left us with oil that had little high pressure protection. Cam and lifter contact points need high pressure lubricating protection from compounds like Zinc and Phosphorous. Deisel oils still have these compounds since they don`t use CATs. Shell Rotella is one that works great.
The point is that ALL the new cam blanks are harder now because some in the VW industry decided that harder cams would stop the "flat cam" prob. It didn`t. But now we are all stuck with hard cams that only work with SCAT lifters. Again to use ANY other lifter is to really press your luck.

I have never had a cam go flat in all the years I`ve been building motors. But a year ago I had two motors literally grind up all 8 lifters. Each motor lasted about 30 minutes. Valve lash was huge after a few minutes of running and the filter was full of filings. Apon disasembly the motors had a cam that had all 4 lobes but they were smeared with lifter metal. Half of the lifters on the other hand had no heads!! They looked like they were taken to a grinder!! I have been forced to use SCAT lifters since then with the Engle cams I`ve always used. No more probs. I`ve built many motors using this combo now and all is well. I don`t use the Lubalobes, they are a waste of money to me. The standard SCAT,CB or WEB lifter work fine. No goofy finish ,no special 9 step breakin proccess. Just smear them with cam lube and pop then in. Dual springs and all. I run my motors for a couple minutes to look for leaks and to time it and then take it down the road and put it under a load. That means race it around None of this baby your motor for the first 500 miles so it burns oil crap.

Anyway. New cam,CB,WEB,Scat lifters,= no probs.
Use Shell Rotella T 15-40 or Kendall 20-50.

Thats whats worked for me.

Oh and by the way yes there are million dollar lifters that are available that can work also but I`m not a millionaire....are U :-)
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RT
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Post by RT »

I'll buy into your theory. Some 15 years ago, any ol' Bugpack/Engle cam and whatever lifters usually worked fine. Now you have to be careful.

I can thank Jake for pushing the Web-cam line. It made me reconsider at the last minute and everything's worked out fine. I used the Web-cam lifters which look like Scat's as you point out.
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Bugzlife
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Post by Bugzlife »

Thanks for sharing Mark, I did not have a clear cam/lifter combo path, until now.
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ErikTheRed
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Post by ErikTheRed »

I ran a WEB 86b in my motor all last season, with SLR resurfaced Brazillian lifters. Spring pressure was NOT crazy, only a set of Bugpack 4047's. The cam AND lifters were completely wiped out-- all 8 lifters were destroyed, along with 3 lobes on the cam. This cam was purchased last year, so Im not sure if its one of the "newer, harder" cams or not-- I thought the newer blanks had the "SC1" stamping, and this one does not. Its a CWC EP12 blank. But whatever the hell it is, the cheap-ass Brazillian lifters completely destroyed it. My new Engle FK-10 was purchased about 2 months ago, and its an SC1, if I remember correctly. Also my bro's 86c is stamped SC1. Both motors are using Scat lifters now, so we'll see.
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vdubsinjensen
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Post by vdubsinjensen »

Why do you consider the Lube-a-lobes a waste? Has anybody done any testing on these that you know of? Don't get me wrong,I'm not doubting anyone's opinion.I'd just like to see some test results.Jake?
Mark H
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Post by Mark H »

vdubsinjensen wrote:Why do you consider the Lube-a-lobes a waste? Has anybody done any testing on these that you know of? Don't get me wrong,I'm not doubting anyone's opinion.I'd just like to see some test results.Jake?
I consider them a waste because the normal scat lifters are working fine right now with the new cam blanks so why spend twice as much money for the same lifter with a hole in it.

Plus in the past Scat lifters have had a reputation for pitting badly. A hole with edges in the middle of the main wear area seems like a great place for pitting to start. so I stick to the normal Scat lifters. These new lifters seem to not pit like the old ones but only time will tell for sure.
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Stripped66
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Post by Stripped66 »

WRT to the zinc discussion, synthetics still have zinc. In fact, oils like Mobil 1 and Amsoil have more zinc than Valvoline Race (depends on quoted source) and Rotella.

Sorry, I fell victim to the claims that synthetics did not contain zinc because the comparison sheets I saw did not list zinc content...it was not a "zero" value I was reading; it was a "blank" value because the people who compiled the list did not know what the zinc content of these oils were. I subsequently got my @ss handed to me in an arguement because of it.

http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html (I think many of us saw this/refer to this)
http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/motoroil.shtml
http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/faq2.htm (zinc and phosphorus in synths!!!)

While the last one is off the Amsoil site (whoopdedoo), it does fill in the "blanks" that the other two sites fail to compile for both zinc and phosphorus. Lesson learned...a "blank" or "---" does not mean zero...it means the author of the list could not find the info.
Last edited by Stripped66 on Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
MASSIVE TYPE IV
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Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV »

The Lube a Lobes are NOT made intentionally to help lube the cam.....

I heard from the owner of Scat himself that the EDM hole is added to see how hard the lifter is... Its a marketing thing, no hearsay on this one..

It damn sure did not help on their TIV lifters, I have spent 5K in repairs due to them..

Looks like its time to add a TI fixture to my spintron, and start making some calls to cam grinders and lifter manufacturers.. they are already starting to hate me!

As soon as the TIV billet lifters are done, then we do the TIV rollers, the next thing on the plate is T I billet liters- They won't be going flat.
Pillow
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Post by Pillow »

Dang it! You all are killing me...

I have been saving a set of German Bilstein Febi lifters for a WebCam in a 2007 with single "hi-rev" Berg springs.... Perhaps a bad idea? :|

Good info to share.

Thanks,
Mark H
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Post by Mark H »

Stripped66 wrote:WRT to the zinc discussion, synthetics still have zinc. In fact, oils like Mobil 1 and Amsoil have more zinc than Valvoline Race (depends on quoted source) and Rotella.

Sorry, I fell victim to the claims that synthetics did not contain zinc because the comparison sheets I saw did not list zinc content...it was not a "zero" value I was reading; it was a "blank" value because the people who compiled the list did not know what the zinc content of these oils were. I subsequently got my @ss handed to me in an arguement because of it.

http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html (I think many of us saw this/refer to this)
http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/motoroil.shtml
http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/faq2.htm (zinc and phosphorus in synths!!!)

While the last one is off the Amsoil site (whoopdedoo), it does fill in the "blanks" that the other two sites fail to compile for both zinc and phosphorus. Lesson learned...a "blank" or "---" does not mean zero...it means the author of the list could not find the info.
Cool links. The site I went to was an oil testing site and the Shell looked better on their site. They had many catigories for each oil. Can't remember the site tho :-( But Kendall has been proven to be great oil by racers over the years. Dean Lowery would use nothing but Kendall. And the Top fuel guys used it forever.
But I think the highest zinc content is not the biggest determining factor. I think most oils with lots of zinc are just fine. Its the oils with little or no zinc that should be avoided. also to much detergent will cause your oil to foam. Its a good idea to check your oil after racing your motor hard to see if theres lots of bubles in it. If so then change to a lower detergent oil and see if it gets better. The truck oils like Shell Rotella have a higher detergent but in my street motors it seems to work fine. But for high reving motors I use Kendall. Valvaline Racing oil has always had a good reputation also and it looks to have lots of zinc. I think I`ll start using their 10-30 for break in oil. I usually dump in some Redline MPZ assembley lube or GM oil sup. just for good measure but I don't want the oil to be too thick so the rings can break in right as well as the cam.
brownnugen
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Post by brownnugen »

Great info, makes me glad that I followed people's advise to use SLR-prepped Scat lifter instead of the German ones. I wanted to mention that my diesel powered Passat does have a catalytic converter.
Mark H
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Post by Mark H »

Pillow wrote:Dang it! You all are killing me...

I have been saving a set of German Bilstein Febi lifters for a WebCam in a 2007 with single "hi-rev" Berg springs.... Perhaps a bad idea? :|

Good info to share.

Thanks,
You can chance it but I don't have a box full of Brand new German,Brazillian and name brand lifters for nothing. They just sit now and I figure if I have an old used cam that I know for sure is not hard then I'll use them with it.
Mark H
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Post by Mark H »

I guess the metal content/catylitic converter ratio is not so cut and dry. They are starting to put Cats on Deisels nowadays and some of the oil brands did not take all the metals out . But they did reduce it . It would be nice to see the difference between oil from 15 yrs ago or so and modern oils. Anyone have some old unopened oil we can have anylized :-)
MASSIVE TYPE IV
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Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV »

I sent one set of lifters from every manufacturer I could find to my lifter manufacturer...

After an observation and measuring the roughness average he replied that only one set of them had the proper surfaces... 4 sets had improper faces, and one set had a 4 degree concave instead of convex on the face!

He doesn't typically deal with VW parts, and was amazed that any of them lasted anytime at all... One set tested in the 50 rockwell area, and thats soft enough to be chewed away by stock springs very quickly.

I'm hoping to apply what I have learned in testing and improving TIV lifters to the TI also, but it will take some time to get the TIV stuff proven and free up the fixture.

FYI, call ANY VW lifter manufacturer and ask them how they test their products, you'll be suprised that NOT a single one has any device that does this- we are their guinea pigs- trust me, I already asked and thats why I spent my time and money making a fixture to prove what each cam and lifters can do in real time with all the contaminants of a running engine...

Our suppliers don't do their homework as a general rule, some try but in the area of lifters they just don't pan out..

BTW, oil has nothing to do with it! If you have soft lifters, or lifters with incorrect faces you could be circulating blood through it and it'll still go bad!
Mark H
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Post by Mark H »

MASSIVE TYPE IV wrote:FYI, BTW, oil has nothing to do with it! If you have soft lifters, or lifters with incorrect faces you could be circulating blood through it and it'll still go bad!
Well ...i don't know about "nothing to do with it" but I agree that the perfect oil will not help if parts are not made right.

The thing is that there were no probs with VW cams going flat untill they started messing with the oil. Also many people at that same time were starting to use Chevy springs on the street. I talked to lots of these chevy spring people who said their cams were mysteriously going flat. I think using these monster spring pressures just pushed things over the edge and the messed up oils didn't help. And of coarse lifters and cams being ground with all the wrong angles doesn't make things any better. But then again I still use whats considered one of the worst ground cams and lifters in all my motors. Engle cams and out of the box Scat lifters :-)
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