Suspension/Brakes/Wheels/Fenders For (or by) Dummie(s)

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:54 pm

Bare with me, the information I've been trying to find (using the search method on this site and other methods) hasn't been easy to come by, and I still have many questions. Someone seriously needs to publish all the data on the wheel/brake/suspension/fender combos for everyone to find easily...maybe a sticky?

I've got a stock width ball joint beam.

From what I've gathered at the CBperformance website the link pin drop spindles add 1" total to the track width and the ball joint spindles don't. They've only got the disclaimer under the link pin drop spindle page

But I've got BJ disc brake spindles and they did add track width up front a noticable amount so I assume it is also 1"(25.4mm) total

.

Anyway, I'll assume I lose 1/2"(12.7mm) per side using 4-lug (4x130 in my case) ball joint front end disc brakes and 2-1/2"(63.5mm) drop spindles from CB.

I've currently got 15"(381mm)x4.5"(114.3mm) chrome rims up front (with 165R-15's aprox. 82 aspect ratio) in addition to the brakes and spindles. 5.5"(139.7mm) width overall and 4.5"(114.3mm) of backspace...1"(25.4mm) of front space. Keep in mind the tire has a lot of side wall roll and the car has been lowered 2-1/2"(63.5mm). So the wheel code would be "15x4.5 4-130 44.45"

I've got stock steel front fenders (US market) `67 and later.

So my final combo give me just a little tire rub on the fender during the most extreme situations...full tank of gas, toolbox, passenger, hard turn, lots of speed, and hard braking. Lower profile tires and narrower tires would both help give me clearance.

If I were to go to a 15"(381mm)x7"(177.8mm) with 52mm offset assuming the same ride height and tire characteristics The tire would be out of the fender (not necessarily when still but under extreme situations) by aprox 0.958"(24.2mm). Must guess the overall rim width so I can only give an approximation. Wheel code of "15x7 5-130 52"

How's my math and findings guys?

trevor_brady · Post by **trevor_brady** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:29 am

It's true. As you've discovered, the CB Performance ball joint drop spindles do increase the front track by approx 12mm each side.

If the stock wheel has an offset of 41mm (I think the late 4 stud steel wheel had this, it'll be stamped on one of the flat areas between the stud holes) you need to increase the offset of whichever wheels you replace them with by 12mm or so to have the wheel back where it used to be before installing the CB spindles.
This means that a 4.5" wide wheel with the same tyre as before would need an offset of 53mm (41 + 12) to be EXACTLY where it was in relation to the wing (fender

) before CB. If you install wider wheels, like 7" with a 53mm (well, 52mm in your case, but it's nothing) with CB Drop spindles then it holds true that the outer edge of the wheel is going to be 3/4" closer to the outer edge of the wing and 3/4" closer to the inner wheel well than the previous bone stock VW wheel/spindle setup.

This applies the same whether the car is at normal height or lowered, just when it's lowered, you're more likely to get tyres rubbing.

I found that by installing a stronger (Bugpack 19mm) anti-roll bar I saved a lot of rubbing of tyres on wings, and limiting the steering stops prevented the tyre hitting the front edge of the trailing arms.

I hope this helps...

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:17 am

I found a great site last night about all the different ET stock rims. Super Beetle rims, rear wheels, Ghia wheels, Type III wheels. Even mentioned that some weigh more or had better welds than others. I'll see if I can't find it later. If I remember correctly there are stock wheels ranging in ET from 26mm-40mm+.

Trevor, thanks for confirming the spindle width.

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:56 am

Found it...

http://www.oxfordshirevwoc.co.uk/wheels.htm

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:11 am

More information to be found about fitting big rims up front...

From a member here(jj8319):

`74 standard beetle, standard width fenders, standard width beam, stock spindles, 17x7 ET40 205/40 rubber. No rubbing or cutting

Those rims have ~61.6mm front space and fit

Must be the little rubber that lets 'em squeeze in there.

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:46 am

OK...so I'm under the assumption that a "15x6 5-130 52.3" rim with 195/50-15 rubber will fit on my Beetle.

Anyone running this combo or could tell me if it is likely to work: trevor_brady, Shadowbug, bugboy696?

Thanks for the help.

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:56 pm

Today I bolted up (temporarily) some 15"x5.5" chrome steel wheels that have 31.75mm front space (wheel code of 15"x5.5" 4x130 50.8 ). I found that the ball joint in the lower trailing arm hit the inside of the wheel, so I added a 1/2" spacer to gain some clearance. This makes the wheel act as if it has 44.45mm front space. The tire is a 195/60-15 and there is no rubbing on the fender in the most extreme of turns. The tire comes very close to the stock sway bar clamps, so I'd probably adjust the steering box stops if I were going to run the wheels like this permanently.

The Porsche phone dials I wish to run have ~36.6mm front space. I'm sure they'll fit under the fenders. The only problem is the contour of the back of the rim hitting the ball joint. I haven't been able to find a picture showing the back of a phone dial, can anyone help me here?

trevor_brady · Post by **trevor_brady** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:42 am

Chris, I used to have 7jx15 phone dials with an offset of ET23.3mm, bolted directly to redrilled hubs. They fit perfectly with no rubbing.

I now have 7jx15 modern 5 spoke wheels on different redrilled hubs (4x100) with an offset of ET38mm. I have a 5mm spacer on the front hubs only which reduces the offset to ET35mm. They also work fine, with a little adjustment of the steering stops to prevent rubbing on the anti-toll bar clamps.

Until i put on the uprated anti-roll bar on, the fornt left was rubbing on the wing under extreme cornering, but I think you'll find that's down to pattern wings being used, and a lot of the folks here will confirm that...

oh, I think 52mm offset on your wheels will be too deep and will rub on the ball joints or trailing arms. You might need to space it out to between 30 and 40mm offset...

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:29 pm

trevor_brady wrote:Chris, I used to have 7jx15 phone dials with an offset of ET23.3mm, bolted directly to redrilled hubs. They fit perfectly with no rubbing.

So that would net you ~78.3mm frontspace and 124.9mm backspace (granted you don't lose 12.7mm to spindles, right?), WOW! Can't believe those didn't rub on the fenders.

trevor_brady wrote:I now have 7jx15 modern 5 spoke wheels on different redrilled hubs (4x100) with an offset of ET38mm. I have a 5mm spacer on the front hubs only which reduces the offset to ET35mm. They also work fine, with a little adjustment of the steering stops to prevent rubbing on the anti-toll bar clamps.

Assuming you meant to say "reduces the offset to ET33" you would have 68.6mm frontspace (134.6 backspace), also a lot.

trevor_brady wrote:...oh, I think 52mm offset on your wheels will be too deep and will rub on the ball joints or trailing arms. You might need to space it out to between 30 and 40mm offset...

Like I hinted at, I'm pretty sure I could tell if the balljoints/lower trailing arms would clear if I could find a picture of the back of a phone dial. When I experienced BJ rub (mind out of gutters) the other day with the steel wheels I found that if the rim had just a little less shape to the inside they'd fit. I figure with this wheel combo (ET53.3) I'd be safe to add at least a 5mm combo before I heard from you, now I assume I can add a healthy bit more than that.

a "15x6 5-130 ET23.3" has ~65.6 frontspace and only 112.2mm backspace. So with drop spindles I'd have the same amount of frontspace as you did when you ran "15x7 5-130 ET23.3" wheels and 25.4mm less backspace. Perfect no?

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:39 pm

Trevor,
I just visited your site and noticed that you did mean 33ET and that you've got early fenders!

Judging from what I've experienced I'm gonna' go out on a limb and say that a comparison cannot be made between early and late fenders...seems the earlier ones were wider.

trevor_brady · Post by **trevor_brady** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:20 am

yeah, sorry about the arithmetic blooper! ET33 it is!!

I don't know about the early vs late wing differences. I've never noticed it before, and I've parked my bug beside lots of late winged bugs.

BTW these were all with stock spindles on a stock width beam. When I had the ET23.3 teledials on I didn't have the front as low as it is now with the 5 spokes on. Obviously that's gonna contribute to the amount of tyre rub on the wings.

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:20 pm

There must be a difference somewhere between our cars...

If you've got stock trackwidth at the wheel bolting surfaces our fenders would be the only thing that varies in the matter. (well, not really, but we know exactly how the spindles effect the combo).

As it is on my car with effective 57.15mm frontspace, the 195/60's stick out just a hair when sighting down the side of the car (though do not rub). With another ~.83" or 21.15mm The tires would be well out of the "wings".

trevor_brady · Post by **trevor_brady** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:56 am

oh. I had 185/65's at the time...

that might make a slight difference...

Chris V · Post by **Chris V** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:43 pm

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... highlight=

OK, I got my new CB spindles. From what I can measure between the stock, welded, and CB's spindles are as follows: The CB's are "beefy" and are aprox. 3/8" wider than the stock ones and aprox. 1/4" narrower than my welded ones. I measured from the center of the upper balljoint hole to the outer part of the spindle where the drum backing plate bolts on. So basically not a whole lot narrower than the welded type but they are made very well. I hope this info helps.
Just a side note about CB Performance, I ordered them Friday 10-31-03 and was told it would take a week and a half..got them Friday 11-7-03...cool, not bad from Ca. to Pa.
Mark

bugboy696 · Post by **bugboy696** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:06 pm

i had the same problem with my rims hitting the bottom balljoints with my 15inch fuchs(wide ones). Had to get phone dials off a 928 i think, all alumium V8.

They are 16x7 rims, so they clear the balljoint, but they have a huge offset, so i used adapter plates to push it out more, plus the 1/2 from dropped spindles. With 215-40 16s they fit without even coming close to the fenders (2 inch wider), plus the beam is dropped 2-3 inchs too. The only place they touch is the arms when i turn sharp, so going to add a spacer and see how much of a difference it makes.

I don't think you'll be able to use your 15inch phonedials and the dropped spindles and still have it clear the fender. But I like it when people prove me wrong:-)