How many would be interested in a bolt on front brake uograd

BobP · Post by **BobP** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 10:44 am

I am curious, how many people would be interested in a bolt on front brake upgrade for the 4 bolt 914/4s?

I know people use the BMW calipers, which require quite a bit of work from what I have read. Others upgrade to 911 parts but this requires upgrading a lot of other pieces and getting 5 bolt rims.

A customer of mine makes custom brake upgrades for a bunch of different cars, including older 911s. He is willing to consider making an upgrade system for 914s also, I am thinking slightly larger vented routers and upgraded calipers, all setup as a bolt on upgrade using the standard rims and some readily available pads. He would use my car to prototype the system or even do a one off for me. I want to know beforehand if there is a potential market as I don't want to waste his time.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 3:05 pm

I road race a highly modified 914 1.7 on 10 inch wide slicks with stock calipers all around and a 19mm master cyl. I can outbrake most of the cars on the track. The stock calipers are not a shortcoming despite what all the guys who have already changed to BMW etc. say, especially for street use. A big problem is the proportioning valve on the firewall in the engine compartment. If you change that to an adjustable unit like a Tilton and adjust it so the front brakes lock up slightly before the rears you will have fantastic brakes unless you have a very big motor and drive very, very fast. The solid rotors will overheat, but only from repeated hard braking from high speed & no cooling ducts. Usually brake pad selection, bad rear pad clearance or poor bleeding procedure is the biggest problem & the cause of poor braking in a 914.

Chris Foley

BobP · Post by **BobP** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 3:56 pm

Chris,

That is really interesting to hear. I have not had a problem with my brakes, although I haven't had the car very long or put a lot of miles on it yet. I just keep reading that people think the brakes need upgrading.
Honestly for my purposes they probably don't, I do 95% street driving, including some road rallys and some autocross, once I have the car to the point I trust it I will do some performance driving school track events. I am willing to be a guinea pig anyway.

I was having a conversation a while back with this customer and he was willing to prototype a system, so I figured I would ask if anyone was interested.

I am still interested in other responses, if anyone else has something to say. This would probably not happen immediately as I don't know how busy the guys shop is right now.

914URY · Post by **914URY** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 6:47 pm

Bob,
I would agree with Chris. Street 914s don't need an upgrade and you really don't need to up grade to the 911 parts unless you really are running a big HP engine. Just about any 914-4 is OK with a good stock system. My 914-4 is a club racer/autocrosser that weighs less than 1700 pounds. I use stock calipers, 19mm m/c, fresh brake fluid, s/s lines, a Tilton p-valve, removed the backing plates and ran ducts to get air to the inside of the discs and carbon pads. I never run out of brakes autocrossing (they don't get hot enough)and I rarely get a soft pedal even running at Sebring which is tough on brakes.
I, for one don't see a need for another option for 914 brakes. A lot of guys only go to the 911 parts because they want to use 911 wheels and will also have a larger selection of tire size options. Not because the stock system is weak. But it is good to ask your question before spending development time and money on it. Go to the Pelicanparts.com 914 BBS for more info than you'll ever need on 914 brake conversions.

914URY · Post by **914URY** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:55 pm

Brian,
Now you have to realize my car will never see the public roads again, so some of the things I've done can not be done to a street car. I have taken out just about everything that isn't needed to drive it. The simple things are striping the interior out, including door glass, door panels and window winding stuff, the rear window glass is also out. The pass. seat is gone-driver's seat is a light wt. aluminum one. I took the dash board out completly (alot of work), the lock off the steering column, the fuse holder was replaced with a four fuse holder and I took about 10 pounds of wire out of the car. I let the car idle and started disconnectng wires- if the car didn't stall-the wire was removed. In the front trunk the headlights and motors were removed and the stock gas tank was replaced with a 10 gallon cell. All that fresh air ductwork and flaps were removed at the base of the windshield. The wipers and motor was removed. The bumpers were changed to f-glass. Most (all) of the sheetmetal behind the front bumper was removed. Moving to the back, the rear trunk floor was cut out (I can tighten the C/V bolts from the top). The sheetmetal behind the rear bumper was cut out. The engine sheetmetal was cut away to only what is over the heads. The engine lid was removed completly. I could go on and on, but my goal is 1500 pounds by going to a complete f-glass body and removing the windshild and roof. I hope to have some picture scaned so I can post them soon.

Brian Miller · Post by **Brian Miller** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 914URY:
My 914-4 is a club racer/autocrosser that weighs less than 1700 pounds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

914URY,

What mods did you make to get the weight so low? How much weight does fiberglass save on the body?

Good to hear your stock brakes work well, I would like to keep mine and only change teh P.V.

------------------
Brian Miller
1974 Porsche 914 Delphi Green/Tan
2270 TYPE IV R.A.T. Motor

Mueller · Post by **Mueller** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:50 pm

Bob,

Good idea, but not too many will be sold.

You can count out the cars that have to use stock 914 components (such as my car, I have early 911 struts but they are considered 914 parts since they came on the 914/6)

For serious racers, most upgrade to the later 911 suspension, so count out that group.

The only people that would be interested in the new brake setup are those that want to or have to keep the stock 4 bolt rims or 4 bolt setup. If that is the case, the stock brakes work fine, most people just don't know how to properly bleed and take care of the stock system. It is not that bad at all.
Vented rotors are not needed for the majority of driving that our 914s see. Like Chris, we have a few top 914 racers out here that have the stock brake system, well, the stock proportioning valve was replaced with an aftermarket unit.

Bigger does not mean better all the time.

It's not a bad thing to look into, but don't spend too much time or money on it. (to get a general idea on the cost for the parts alone, get a Wilwood and Coleman Racing catalog)

Mike Mueller
'75 914 2.0 w/L-jet

[This message has been edited by Mueller (edited 01-21-2002).]

HotRod · Post by **HotRod** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 8:11 am

I too race a 914 in FP. I have used the 320i calipers and although it does use a bigger pad (the same size as the Porsche A Caliper)I didn't notice much difference from the stock 914-4 calipers that I have on the car now. I use the front calipers on all 4 corners, 19mm master cyl, and use an aftermarket proportioning valve. Like Chris said, with the stock setup, I can outbrake any other FP car on the track.

johnhora · Post by **johnhora** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:15 pm

Brian...
Like the others I have raced a 914 in PCA GT5/GT6 and have never run out of brakes with the stock caliper, 19mm master cyl, SS lines and running Porterfield R4 pads.
Out brake all the 911s and 944s even the turbos. Love to see them coming to the corners with me. The only ones that are quicker are the big boys running 180mph down the straight at IRP. And then who cares about them($$$$) I'm just having fun. The 914 is so balanced and light any way. Put a 3.0 six or V8 and ok you have hit the limit of speed and weight. Stock is fine, pay the bucks for excellent pads, make sure the caliper are in excellent shape (read rebuid if not, easy task) And don't worry about the occasional squeel it means you have a race car anyway. Above all have fun!

John

BobP · Post by **BobP** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:49 am

WOW, I guess you racers prove that the popular wisdom that the 914 doesn't have enough brakes isn't true. Like I said mine is a street car, I do want to build a more powerful motor, but will stick with a 4cyl. I didn't think I needed more brakes personally, but hearing other people talk about needing bigger brakes quite often had me wondering if there was an opportunity here for my customer. And I was willing to be the test subject to get something pretty cool for cheap. I guess I won't waste his time.

Thanks everyone.

HotRod · Post by **HotRod** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 8:07 am

You could always go with a 911 setup. The biggest advantage to the 911 setup is the vented rotors and 5 lug wheels (you can use fuches alloys). With this setup you can use either the A caliper or the alloy S caliper. this approach is probably the most expensive and to be quite honest, the cars that I have driven that were set up like this, didn't seem to have the same "feel" under threshold breaking. Just an option, albeit an expensive one.

Rleog · Post by **Rleog** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 9:45 am

Chris Foley, 914URY, et al -
This thread came like a breath of fresh air at the end of winter. I'm having my engine rebuilt to 2270 specs, and thought I'd have to upgrade to 911 calipers to handle the additional power. Now, I'll at least hold off the brake upgrade and run the 2270 with the stock calipers (already put the 19mm master cylinder in) for awhile. What are the consequences of running with the stock proportioning valve? If I'm only going to do spirited street driving for awhile, do you guys think stainless steel lines and cooling ducting are necessary? Thanks.

Dave_Darling · Post by **Dave_Darling** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 4:16 pm

I would disagree on the SS lines. One reason is that I never think to inspect the brake lines (or rarely do), and the SS brake lines are not something you want to forget about. Since I know this failing in myself, I stick with rubber.

The stock proportioning valve isn't the best-designed thing on the car. Having a proportioning valve is probably a good idea, since locking up the rear brakes first is a good way to spin. However, there are a number of aftermarket valves you can buy. They don't have the built-in sponginess that seems to go with most of thhe stock valves.

I do know people running without any proportioning valve, on stock brakes. They like it, but I don't think it's a great idea.

--DD

------------------
1974 VW-Porsche 914 2.0 (Type IV powered!)

Pelican Parts' 914 Tech Geek http://www.pelicanparts.com

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 5:04 pm

Hi Rleog,

I am highly in favor of replacing the original brake hoses with new rubber hoses on a street car. They won't be the cause if you have a spongy pedal. The SS lines are more durable on the outside only. The teflon liner is susceptible to breakdown but can't be seen. They definitely won't last as long on a street car as the rubber lines.
As far as the stock proportioning valve - I say ditch it in favor of a racing style adjustable proportioning valve. Set that about midrange to start with. The best place for testing is an autocross. One thing that always bothered me about stock brakes is the pads. Many pads don't have a good coefficient of friction. Maybe I am biased because the racing pads I use are so effective. I would be tempted to use them in a street car too, but the experts say they need to be warmed up before they respond to sudden panic stop situations. Maybe Dave D. has an informed opinion about this.

Chris Foley

johnhora · Post by **johnhora** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:08 pm

Dito on Chris and Dave's feeling about using the SS on street. Probably most 914s are still running with the OEM 20+ year old rubber lines. Just get a brand new set of the OEM rubber, ATE if you can and you will be amazed at the difference really. I took a front line off a customer's 914 once that had a marble size bulge in it and it still was holding fluid, but talk about spongy. Use the old common sense in this stuff. Don't go cheap on brakes and tires. Forget the hp stuff get the control.
If you want to go less expensive get the Repco/Axxis Metalmaster pads. Very good pads for the price on the street and autox.
Anything other than a good race pad on the track will leave you breathless on about the second heavy brake zone. Bleed the brakes regularly with a good fluid. ex:Castrol LMA for street and autox. Motul, ATE on track.
Good Luck......John