JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

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MASSIVE TYPE IV
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:04 am

I have retarded 20 degrees with my safeguard...set the dizy to 50 and retarded to 30.....it has LEDs that light in 2 degree increments so you can watch the retard.

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Stripped66
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Stripped66 » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:10 am

Okay, so 20 degrees still appears within the range capable with your rotor and cap...but again, reasking the question, at what point is the Safeguard unable to offer any more retardation, or is the coil's discharge going to mysteriously bridge a huge gap when the rotor is 30 degrees past the terminal (hypothetical...but my point is asking about the limits of this system, and whether it is limited by the Safeguard - factory determined limits - or limited by the physical relationship between the rotor and temrinal in the cap).

JohnConnolly
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by JohnConnolly » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:41 am

You are thinking too much. If the distributor runs from 7 BTDC (idle) to 32 total, and the Safeguard retards up to 20 degrees, bringing you back to 12 BTDC. Since 12 BTDC is right between 7-32, rotor indexing isn't an issue, unless it's already a problem.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stripped66:
Okay, so 20 degrees still appears within the range capable with your rotor and cap...but again, reasking the question, at what point is the Safeguard unable to offer any more retardation, or is the coil's discharge going to mysteriously bridge a huge gap when the rotor is 30 degrees past the terminal (hypothetical...but my point is asking about the limits of this system, and whether it is limited by the Safeguard - factory determined limits - or limited by the physical relationship between the rotor and temrinal in the cap).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MASSIVE TYPE IV
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:55 am

The amount of retard is not a big deal, why in the world would anyone need that much retard??? I just did it for kick and to see how the system worked, I never needed more than about 8 degrees retard.

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Stripped66
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Stripped66 » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:55 am

I think for the most part you answered my question by saying that the Safeguard can retard a maximum of 20 degrees. However, I think I am having problems asking my question because nobody understands it.
As far as retarding goes, the explanation relative to what range of advance the distributer offers does not apply since this advance is purely mechanical, and both the points and the rotor are affected the same by the advance (or retard). However, what I'm saying is that the retarding effect of the safeguard is triggererd off of the points. The points are hopefully aligned nice and tight with the rotor's completed circuit with the electrode on the cap. You are running (hypothetically) so much advance that the Safeguard is fully retarding, but the retarded coil discharge occurs after the rotor has passed by the electrode. Is this a possibility (again, I am asking, eventhough it does not sound like a possibility)?
Mindless banter for anyone interested...

MASSIVE TYPE IV
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:05 pm

In my test engine I ran the centrifugal advance mallory, without the safeguard the fastest advance I could run was the factory setting, which is pretty slow, anything else would ping like mad below 3K, on the dyno, or in the car..

With the safeguard I could run a pair of pink springs, which are fast as lightning and will ping like crazy on almost any engine...

I installed these and jacked the ful advance to 36 degrees, 10 degrees higher than what the engine liked on the dyno....the difference was absolutely crazy, it felt like another complete engine, as it was relying totally on the safeguard to keep it right on the edge, but make every ounce of power possible.....thats whyI said that it worked, the power differebnce even in the car was phenomenol.

Since then I have sold my test engine and have been using the safeguard as a dyno tol, it makes my timing optimization 5 times faster, I can do it in 3 pulls and sometimes just one....no one would believe the power differences, with the unit, even if I posted them.

------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com

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Stripped66
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Stripped66 » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:12 pm

Why in the world would you need that amount of retard? I dunno...maybe if something really crapped up your engine and an insane amount of retard would be the only thing to save it. Hypothetical is the key word here.
Truely, the question is asking about possibilites outside of normal. I really don't give a rats a** about normal; I'm interested in the limitations. Take a look around. Normal people don't make the Olympics; normal people don't lead technological advancements. Normal people get coronary heart disease and watch football. I'm interested in the limitations so I don't have to worry about how it's operating when "normal." Such is the case elsewhere; overengineering hopes to ensure that devices/structures not only are able to cope with normal uses, but those associated with extreme conditions.
So from all accounts and explanations, there is at least a 20 degree sweep of the rotor where electricity is able to bridge from the rotor to the electrode on the cap. What is the limit?

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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:29 pm

I consider myself far from normal, and my ideas sometimes too, I like abnormality..

Think about it, if something in the engine craps out bad enough to move your timing more than 20 degrees chances are that its gonna need a tear down anyway....It may retard more than that, but I did not see, next time I hook it up I'll see how many degrees it will actually go, just for the heck of it.

JohnConnolly
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by JohnConnolly » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:31 pm

YOU ARE THINKING TOO MUCH

If the rotor is indexed properly, it will be fine from idle to full advance, which INCLUDES ALL POINTS IN BETWEEN. If the Safegard retards up to 20 degrees from full advance (it will never retard at idle), all is fine. It doesn't matter how it's triggerred, the only thing that matters is where the rotor is when the spark has to jump the gap.

It's not that we don't understand you, it's that you are seemingly not understanding the answer.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

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Stripped66
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Stripped66 » Mon Jul 08, 2002 4:18 pm

I'm sorry John, I understand your answer very much. Your answer is in fact very simple, yet not answering my question. Not understanding my question is probably my fault since I've already admitted to not writing it clearly. Refuting my admission to writing an unclear question and stating that I am not understanding your answer is f*cking arrogant. Read up:
the distributer is a MECHANICAL timing system; the safeguard is an ELECTRONIC timing system. I am asking what is the limit of the Safeguard's ability to provide a spark relative to the MECHANICAL AND ELECTRONIC LIMITS inherent within the system. I understand what advance is, relative to the distributor; however, I'm not, nor was I ever, asking about the active process of the distributor advancing the timing. That is why your answer does not address my question.
I've been asking about the limits of the safeguard to accomodate to ridiculous advanced timing at any point...I don't care if the timing is relatively advancing (e.g. increasing timing advance) due to acceleration of the engine, or if the timing is relatively retarding (e.g. decreasing timing advance) due to the engines RPM decreasing. At any point in time, regardless of where the dizzy is relative to its advance curve, I have been asking about the Safeguard's ability to discharge the coil when the rotor is in contact with the terminal. Yes, the input conditions into the scenario are absurd; yes, it would be equivalent to not INDEXING the distributor correctly; and yes, if the timing was advanced so much that this actually occurred, activation of the Safeguard may be the least of my concerns. I asked the question because I want to know WHAT IF?! Am I thinking about it too much? Hell yeah...that's how you increase your understanding of something, that's how you educate yourself, and that's how you put tools to use effectively. If I weren't thinking too much, I'd be out of a job.
Unless your intellectual property is protected, don't tell people they are thinking too much. If the question is too mundane for you, don't answer.
I'm sorry for asking the question...seriously, in retrospect, it was not worth it.


[This message has been edited by Stripped66 (edited 07-08-2002).]

JohnConnolly
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by JohnConnolly » Mon Jul 08, 2002 4:27 pm

don't be sorry. However, if there was a problem with the use of this item, I'd disclose that in the product description in our catalog. It doesn't affect rotor indexing assuming it's correct before you begin.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by MASSIVE TYPE IV » Mon Jul 08, 2002 5:30 pm

No electronic device could remedy a mechanical limit......so basically guess you have 90 degrees of potential advance, how much of that can be controlled by safeguard, I'll let you know Wednesday morning!

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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
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Stripped66
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Stripped66 » Mon Jul 08, 2002 6:14 pm

Thanks Jake! And despite what I said, thank you, too, John. I ask because I am interested in the device. Any info is helpful. When I have more money, I will be very interested in purchasing one; until then, I'll run you ragged with questions.

ray greenwood
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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by ray greenwood » Mon Jul 08, 2002 6:23 pm

Hmmm....on a lighter note, I'm always dropping into these things late. Waaaay back to the stacked resistance/jumping gaps issue...what John was referring to is the amount of energy needed in a particular system, to reach ionization point...or the ability/energy level necessary to jump a gap/produce an arc. Unless current is insanely high...there needs to be some resistance at the main arc point to allow current build. Aside from that built in resistance (either resistor wires or resistor plugs), in a clean system, if the current stream has enouh energy to truly ionize in the largest gap....the others are negligable. Not truely invisible mind you....but negligable. They do not actually act like resistors, limiting current...unless the intermediate gaps are truely excessive and larger than the primary (the plug)...or are made of materials that have a higher impedance value. This is one of the most important reasons to keep a close eye on the quality of tune up parts, wires etc....and on the material and resistor value of the plugs you use in comparison to the system that feeds them. You can buy the hottest ignition in the world....and put it through poorly made wires, or plugs of the wrong resistance ...with poorly sized electrodes...and get less than you started with. I understand Johns point...waaaay back. Ray

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JS Safeguard- Knock retard system

Post by Marc » Mon Jul 08, 2002 6:27 pm

WOW! Massive response on this topic - this is the first real advance I've seen in applying modern technology to our dinosaur engines in ages and it's one I've been waiting for for a long time. The price of admission is still pretty steep for the average guy but if you've got a lot of money invested already it's chump change. Bravo!

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