two stroke VW

goatmaster187 · Post by **goatmaster187** » Sat May 04, 2002 2:02 pm

Howdy,
A month or few ago I saw a air-cooled motor that was modified for two stroke operation. I wanted to try modifying a motor to put in my sandrail. I'm a four stroke guy and don't understand the ins and outs of a two stroker so I signed up on a couple of two stroke lists on Yahoo and I got a less than favorable response. I was going for info and advise and got "I can't think of a dumber idea". So I any of you have knowledge of two strokes I'd like suggested reading material or into.
Thanks,
Austin

cj011 · Post by **cj011** » Sat May 04, 2002 3:54 pm

austin, i am on the same boat, i have asked and asked but never any response. there is someone who visits this forum frequently who has done a two stroke 914. also on the cal-look. com forum there is someone who is named two stroke, who i think has done a 2443 type one motor. good luck hunting.

ANT · Post by **ANT** » Sat May 04, 2002 8:51 pm

First you need to ask yourself WHY? Why do you want to do this? Why are your goals? What is your intended useage? ETC ETC

This has been done, although it's not cheap or for those without a machine shop at their disposal. It's MAJOR MAJOR work.
-ANT

cj011 · Post by **cj011** » Sun May 05, 2002 2:30 am

i will answer for myself. to be honest, my asking was or is for the pursuit of knowledge. it maybe difficult but there are some out there who are interested in projects that further there automotive knowledge. that is my goal, and difficulty will be just part of anything out of the ordinary or not stock. thanks for the reply, why would it be difficult and exspensive to do

Sidewalk · Post by **Sidewalk** » Sun May 05, 2002 9:54 pm

A decent amount of machine will be required. If you don't have the time and equipment, someone esle will charge you a premium for it. Especially for a non standard mod. Get a cheap 2 cycle dirt bike and tear it apart. Learn the function and buy some books. It is a real simple operation really.

However, fuel efficiency and torque are non existent in a 2 stroke. The extra RPM's required put a real strain on reciprocating parts too, so don't expect it to last very long.

------------------
'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"

But are you gutless?

ANT · Post by **ANT** » Sun May 05, 2002 11:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sidewalk:
A decent amount of machine will be required. If you don't have the time and equipment, someone esle will charge you a premium for it. Especially for a non standard mod. Get a cheap 2 cycle dirt bike and tear it apart. Learn the function and buy some books. It is a real simple operation really.

However, fuel efficiency and torque are non existent in a 2 stroke. The extra RPM's required put a real strain on reciprocating parts too, so don't expect it to last very long.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say that the torque is non existent? You have a power stroke on every other revolution instead of every 4th. Yes, you gotta buzz the snot out of most 2 strokes, but that doesn't always apply.

General Motor's Diesel locomotives have been 2 strokes almost from day one--they did this so they'd have a peppy relatively low rpm
engine as the top speed were/are somewhat limited due to the sheer mass of such a large engine (high piston speeds, horrendously heavy recip assemblys, etc).
-ANT

ANT · Post by **ANT** » Sun May 05, 2002 11:45 pm

Hey Sidewalk, I see you're in Alameda, I be in SF. You ever come across any of those vertically opposed F-M diesels? Are you familiar with their history?

Originally developed for the Navy as submarine powerplants, after the war were installed in a line of locomotives with mixed results (mainly due to indifferent repair personnel). The Soutern Pacific had a fleet of these on the Penninsula commuter run with great success--up thru the 70's IIRC
-ANT

Sidewalk · Post by **Sidewalk** » Mon May 06, 2002 9:21 am

No one would happen to be refering to either the GM EMD deisels or the Fairbanks-Morse opposed pistom engines would you? Don't compare a diesel 2 stroke to a gas 2 stroke, there is no comparison. Bare in mind that the GM and the Fairbanks both have a turbo or blower depending on the build purpose. None of them are N/A. The F-B is still a used engine. I prefer the EMD, those have lots of power, great efficiency, easy to maintain and repair and sound bitcin'!

The reason 2 strokes lack torque is because a lot of the power flows right out of the exhaust ports (or valves depending on design) during the power stroke. The way to get torque is to stroke the engine right? Cutting ports into the cylinders decreases the useful amount of actual stroke. To gain that stroke back, you will have to increase the overall stroke again, just to get what was stock. If you want to replace some of that power, turbo it.

------------------
'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"

But are you gutless?

Sidewalk · Post by **Sidewalk** » Mon May 06, 2002 9:23 am

The bore x stroke of the EMD is 9.5" x 10.5", talk about a stroker huh?

ANT wouldn't happen to be short for Anteam would it?

------------------
'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"

But are you gutless?

Sidewalk · Post by **Sidewalk** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:14 pm

Well if you are going to do that to a go cart, better build one hell of a chassis LOL. Al that weight and torque, man what a mess that could be, a big pretzel with a driver inside...

I have the advantage, I work on ships with those exact same engines (well, used to, will again soon).

------------------
'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"

But are you gutless?

Sidewalk · Post by **Sidewalk** » Mon May 06, 2002 12:16 pm

Oh yeah, Anteam, I am sure you are wondering. Anteam is a USCG unit that works on Aids to Navigation (bouys and such). There are always a few diesel mechanics at those units, and there is one in SF.

------------------
'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"

But are you gutless?

spootman · Post by **spootman** » Mon May 06, 2002 7:55 pm

Instead of converting a VW motor to 2 stroke... i think the best way to go about it would be to base it around the case. If you could get an aluminum case.. weld up the cylinder holes, and get TWO old 1000cc snomobile engines. Take the cylinders off, machine the case to accept them, machine some long rods to work with a scat destroked crank, put on a radiator, and your there! Now, a new artic cat 1000cc puts out 155 hp.. and can be modified to around 170 with bolt ons. So your looking at around a 300 hp engine that revs to 10000 rpm.
Just a thought!

I know a few things about 2-strokes, i built a go cart out of a snowmobile engine and made my own expansion chambers. If you think i can help you, e-mail me.

ANT · Post by **ANT** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sidewalk:
No one would happen to be refering to either the GM EMD deisels or the Fairbanks-Morse opposed pistom engines would you? Don't compare a diesel 2 stroke to a gas 2 stroke, there is no comparison. Bare in mind that the GM and the Fairbanks both have a turbo or blower depending on the build purpose. None of them are N/A. The F-B is still a used engine. I prefer the EMD, those have lots of power, great efficiency, easy to maintain and repair and sound bitcin'!

The reason 2 strokes lack torque is because a lot of the power flows right out of the exhaust ports (or valves depending on design) during the power stroke. The way to get torque is to stroke the engine right? Cutting ports into the cylinders decreases the useful amount of actual stroke. To gain that stroke back, you will have to increase the overall stroke again, just to get what was stock. If you want to replace some of that power, turbo it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BRAIN FARTS!!!!! Dunno why I started on a tack about diesel 2 strokes....brain farts is all I can blame it on LOL

Of course you are spot on regarding long stroke and blowers. Personally, I'd like to see a nitrous-blown-2 stroke diesel in a go cart. Better have a full roll cage, wheelie bars, a helmet, 8 point harness, life/health insurance and adult diapers!
-ANT
PS "ANT" is short for Anthony---D'oh!

Paul_S · Post by **Paul_S** » Mon May 06, 2002 11:44 pm

Just to clarify something.
You CAN and DO get 2-strokes that are as efficient as 4-strokes and develop more torque and power than a similar capacity 4-stroke.

The secret is blowing and fuel injection.
One company that does this is Orbital in Australia. http://www.orbeng.com.au
My uncle used to work for them and they have developed some really good products.

Have a look at their 3 cylinder 2-stroke.
It's only 1197 cc but puts out 105 ft.lb of torque @ 3000 RPM and 85 HP @ 4500 RPM.

I wish my standard 1600 could perform like that!

Or look at mirolight engines (ultralight for you yanks). They put out about 60HP from a 2 cylinder 2-stroke of 550cc and those are standard 2-strokes.

Sidewalk · Post by **Sidewalk** » Tue May 07, 2002 9:06 am

Using the same technology side by side, the two stroke is less efficient. It is inherant with the design. You can get close with well designed ports, exhaust valves and a blower. But the 4 can do better with the same parts. A blown FI 4 stroke makes use of the burn for a onger period of time.

2 strokes are gun and have thier purpose, but I am not hot on them in cars. When you need maximum power in the smallest package, like a dirt bike, yes. For a car? That is up to you, I won't run one. Unless it doesn't have a spark plug, then I will try to make it fit under my hood...

------------------
'88 Bronco II - Sonja
'59 Bug - Stella
'00 Buell X1 - Liz
"Yes, I am a smart ass."
"I'm a DUMBASS too"

But are you gutless?