I have a 1835cc transporter motor with a high-performance cam in it (not sure the specs on the cam). I have dual Weber 44 IDFs on there, and one of my carbs is trashed beyond repair, the other is OK. Rather than replacing the bad Weber, does anyone know of a manifold that will let me use a Holly (or similar) 4bbl carb? What complications might arise from using one if I did?
Thanks,
-Rick
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
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ViolentBlue
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
from what I've been told, air cooled vw engines don't like 4 barrel carbs, just too much carburation for the engine.
here's a thought, try a CIS fuel injection system from a rabbit or early 80's volvo
here's a link to a page thats done this. http://www.dolphinsci.com/typeIV.html
here's a thought, try a CIS fuel injection system from a rabbit or early 80's volvo
here's a link to a page thats done this. http://www.dolphinsci.com/typeIV.html
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rickjames8
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
Good god, that looks like a lot of work. 
I ma looking for something that can have me on the road in the next month or so. I'm not opposed to putting some time in to the car, but I just want to get it running first. If I do a project like that, I'll do it on a second motor over the course of the next year, and then make the swap.
I found the link I was looking for at www.kymcovw.com. I have sent them an email asking about how well it works. Do you know why 4bbls dont work well in the VWs? This Kymco product looks as though it throws all the fuel in to one plenum, then distributes it. I could see if there were 4 runners, one to each barrel - I could see reasons why that would not work well. This, I think might work. I'd like to hear reasons why people think it wouldnt though, as there are probably things I havent been thinking of.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ViolentBlue:
<B>from what I've been told, air cooled vw engines don't like 4 barrel carbs, just too much carburation for the engine.
here's a thought, try a CIS fuel injection system from a rabbit or early 80's volvo
here's a link to a page thats done this. http://www.dolphinsci.com/typeIV.html </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I ma looking for something that can have me on the road in the next month or so. I'm not opposed to putting some time in to the car, but I just want to get it running first. If I do a project like that, I'll do it on a second motor over the course of the next year, and then make the swap.
I found the link I was looking for at www.kymcovw.com. I have sent them an email asking about how well it works. Do you know why 4bbls dont work well in the VWs? This Kymco product looks as though it throws all the fuel in to one plenum, then distributes it. I could see if there were 4 runners, one to each barrel - I could see reasons why that would not work well. This, I think might work. I'd like to hear reasons why people think it wouldnt though, as there are probably things I havent been thinking of.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ViolentBlue:
<B>from what I've been told, air cooled vw engines don't like 4 barrel carbs, just too much carburation for the engine.
here's a thought, try a CIS fuel injection system from a rabbit or early 80's volvo
here's a link to a page thats done this. http://www.dolphinsci.com/typeIV.html </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Brutus
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ViolentBlue:
<B>from what I've been told, air cooled vw engines don't like 4 barrel carbs, just too much carburation for the engine.
[/URL] </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to be flippant, but alot of old theories no longer hold true. Like Type IV's being undependable, not being able to build a Type I over 2 liters and have it live more than a week. Stuff like that, that may have been true at one time, but someone has found away to make it work. I always figure when people say "That won't work on a VW engine!", the truth is more like "No one has had the right knowledge, time, and resources to make that work yet."
I'm not saying the 4brl will or will not work well on the VW engine, I've never run one. I know it's been used on corvairs sucessfully. I know that a single two barrel center mount carb is the preference of most off roaders because of the reduced movement and flooding. So the distance from carb to port issue seems to be one that can be worked around (actually leads to good torque, as long as you don't pool). I've seen it used on Pinto 2.0 and 2.3 litter engines, so it would seem that it isn't too big for the displacement of alot of VW engines. There are alot of different sized 4 brls out there - anywhere from 390cfm (barely more than a progressive or the big bugspray) all the way up to 1100cfm plus. So sizing the carb is just as different and criticle as weither you run 40's, 44's or 48's. And you do have the advantage of not syncronizing and parts availability, a bazillion air cleaner choices, ect.
This manifold by Kymco has intreged me ever since I first saw it in a "Christmas Gift Ideas" article in one of the VW mags. As much because it's something diferent, as because it might have some real advantages over spending $1500 on a set of duals. Course, then there is also the Holley 650 Double Pumper with a Weber power kit on it in the corner of my garage, just sitting....
Of course the proof is in the pudding. Who's got some pudding? Who's got a dyno and an engine that breaths deep enough to try this out on? Anyone (besides me) want to see one of the magazines take an 1835cc with mild head work, a 2007cc, and a 2332cc (did I get that one right?), type I on the dyno and optimize the tuning with duals, then switch over to the four barrel and optimize it's tunning and see where the chips (or charts) lie?
Right now it's this great unknown product. Not that Kymco doesn't offer good products, just that no one here seems to have run one, and no one has run a test on it in a mag yet.
Heath
------------------
'69 Baja, '76 Baja, '67 Half Baja, '68 Bus, missing my '59 Double door
<B>from what I've been told, air cooled vw engines don't like 4 barrel carbs, just too much carburation for the engine.
[/URL] </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to be flippant, but alot of old theories no longer hold true. Like Type IV's being undependable, not being able to build a Type I over 2 liters and have it live more than a week. Stuff like that, that may have been true at one time, but someone has found away to make it work. I always figure when people say "That won't work on a VW engine!", the truth is more like "No one has had the right knowledge, time, and resources to make that work yet."
I'm not saying the 4brl will or will not work well on the VW engine, I've never run one. I know it's been used on corvairs sucessfully. I know that a single two barrel center mount carb is the preference of most off roaders because of the reduced movement and flooding. So the distance from carb to port issue seems to be one that can be worked around (actually leads to good torque, as long as you don't pool). I've seen it used on Pinto 2.0 and 2.3 litter engines, so it would seem that it isn't too big for the displacement of alot of VW engines. There are alot of different sized 4 brls out there - anywhere from 390cfm (barely more than a progressive or the big bugspray) all the way up to 1100cfm plus. So sizing the carb is just as different and criticle as weither you run 40's, 44's or 48's. And you do have the advantage of not syncronizing and parts availability, a bazillion air cleaner choices, ect.
This manifold by Kymco has intreged me ever since I first saw it in a "Christmas Gift Ideas" article in one of the VW mags. As much because it's something diferent, as because it might have some real advantages over spending $1500 on a set of duals. Course, then there is also the Holley 650 Double Pumper with a Weber power kit on it in the corner of my garage, just sitting....
Of course the proof is in the pudding. Who's got some pudding? Who's got a dyno and an engine that breaths deep enough to try this out on? Anyone (besides me) want to see one of the magazines take an 1835cc with mild head work, a 2007cc, and a 2332cc (did I get that one right?), type I on the dyno and optimize the tuning with duals, then switch over to the four barrel and optimize it's tunning and see where the chips (or charts) lie?
Right now it's this great unknown product. Not that Kymco doesn't offer good products, just that no one here seems to have run one, and no one has run a test on it in a mag yet.
Heath
------------------
'69 Baja, '76 Baja, '67 Half Baja, '68 Bus, missing my '59 Double door
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ViolentBlue
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
A friend of mine had a beetle with a hot type 1 engine, (story for type 4 could be different) he built a manifold to run a 4 barrel, he couldn't touch the gas at all without trowing 6 foot flames.
eventually he had to abandon it, just couldn't get it to work, and this was an experienced VW vetran.
your absolutly right, it might be possible, but I don't know of anyone who has done it.
eventually he had to abandon it, just couldn't get it to work, and this was an experienced VW vetran.
your absolutly right, it might be possible, but I don't know of anyone who has done it.
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ViolentBlue
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
as for the injection, theres no need for it to be that complicated. you could use a lot of your stock type4 injection stuff.
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ViolentBlue
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
give it a try, sounds like fun
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rickjames8
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
Flames out the back, huh? That could be cool. 
Well, I just ordered the kit to rebuild my 2bbl Holley. But I also ordered a plate to mount a 4bbl to the 2bbl manifold. I think I will get the car running with the 2bbl first, which seems like I would run in to less snags, then in the summer, tinker with the 4bbl set up. Would a 500cfm 4bbl carb be too much? That seems to be the lowest CFM rating I can find in a reasonable price range.
Well, I just ordered the kit to rebuild my 2bbl Holley. But I also ordered a plate to mount a 4bbl to the 2bbl manifold. I think I will get the car running with the 2bbl first, which seems like I would run in to less snags, then in the summer, tinker with the 4bbl set up. Would a 500cfm 4bbl carb be too much? That seems to be the lowest CFM rating I can find in a reasonable price range.
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Brutus
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
Which 2 barrel holly are you going to be using? What manifold? Just curious.
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rickjames8
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
The 2bbl carb is a Holley R6651-9 (thats what the markings say). You can see the carb and the manifold on my website at: http://www.travelhead.com/cars/sterling/project/
Look near the last 3/4 of that page for pics of the carb and manifold.
-Rick
Look near the last 3/4 of that page for pics of the carb and manifold.
-Rick
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Brutus
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 12:01 am
Manifold to use a 4bbl carb?
Finally got a chance to look at your page. Looks like a cool project.
I don't know about adapting a 4 barrel to that progressive 2 barrel manifold. It may choke things down too much - of course, maybe that'll help keep the air velocity up and prevent puddling?? I thought maybe you had an adapter going from a Holly Bug-Spray (simultanious and seperated 2 barrel) to a holly 4 barrel.
Hummm.... I have a bug-spray manifold, and no carb to fit it, and I have a spare 4 barrel laying around. Maybe I'll have to mill out an aluminum addapter to mate the two - two barrel progressive on both sides more or less. Always wanted to do that, and this might be an easy way..... hummmm.... the wheels are turning (though they rarely lead anywhere).
Heath
I don't know about adapting a 4 barrel to that progressive 2 barrel manifold. It may choke things down too much - of course, maybe that'll help keep the air velocity up and prevent puddling?? I thought maybe you had an adapter going from a Holly Bug-Spray (simultanious and seperated 2 barrel) to a holly 4 barrel.
Hummm.... I have a bug-spray manifold, and no carb to fit it, and I have a spare 4 barrel laying around. Maybe I'll have to mill out an aluminum addapter to mate the two - two barrel progressive on both sides more or less. Always wanted to do that, and this might be an easy way..... hummmm.... the wheels are turning (though they rarely lead anywhere).
Heath