Hello,
My name is Clark Blumberg I live in North Western
Ontario, Canada, along the north shore of lake superior
in the town of Thunder Bay.
I have read a lot of your corespondence about Type 4
conversions and Porsches so I thought I would ask you
a question, AH...
I have a 1969 Porsche 912 with a five speed
transmission which I beleive is a 902 transmission. It
has the original porsche starter motor.
I am going the other way which is to say that I am on
a tight budget (you know two children, house,
mortgage) and I have a really nice Type 1, 1641cc 1971
dual port VW motor it has the stock 1971 super beetle
flywheel on it.
My question is will the engine fit to the transmission
properly? What kind of clutch could I use? OR any
other comments on how I could make this work would be
appreciated greatly.
Thank you kindly, Clark.
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
-
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 12:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
hey Clark. I too have a '69 912 and it is powered by a type 1 1641. I'll give you any info I have, keping in mind there are many ways to skin a 912. Anyway for a clutch you use a later bug cluctch and pressure plate. The one without the ring on the fingers of the pressure plate. This wil make it work with your release bearing. You may need to swap the lower engine studs from your 356 motor or a type IV as they are longer and will reach through your trans. The rear motor mount, wow what a pain in the ass. I used a bus motor with the stock mount under the bottom. Then I used the stock 912 mount up top and tied the two together by welding two steel pieces to the lower mount then bolting them to the 912 mount. So now it is rubber mounted and looks good from the top. I cut off the extra unused part of the lower bus mount. The tin was pretty easy to make, and a dog house shroud fits fine. The clutch pedal feels very light but seems to work great(stock pressure plate). The acc. cable was not too bad. the exhaust is a cheap bug header with the flange cut off and a 912 bursch type quiet pack (much shorter than a bug quiet pack) welded on to exit the factory cut-out. I run dual kadrons (air filters hit deck lid hinges) MSD 6A ignition and a mild cam. This set-up seems to work well as the rpm range works with the tranny. Let me know if I can help you ie. pictures, phone call etc. I have plans for turbo type 1 next. Good Luck Adam12
- clarkblumberg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
Thanks, Adam
Wow, this shop talk is great! Sure takes the mystery out of my project. When I first looked at a 912 engine it did not look all that different from a type 1. I guess that's because Porsche originally started out by modifing a vw 1 engine in the early 356 cars. However, when I got into it I could see a lot of differences. One was price. The cost of a 356/912 engine was clearly out of sight for me on my budget. I was starting out with nothing and I had engine quotes of between ten and twenty thousand dollars. Even if it was half that at five grand that was way too much for me. Therefore, I started building a VW engine. I read the 1971 book on how to Hot Rod a VW engine and he recommends that people use VW engines rather than the expensive 912 engines in their Volkswagons as he says that the 912/356 engines are not so powerfull and will not produce as much HP as a Hot Rodded VW - Even with super tuning. He also stated that there is very little performance equipment available for the four cylinder engine and parts pricing on Porsche parts are very expensive. Those are his words not mine and he's a very experienced man with engines (Bill Fisher). So, I figured I would build up a type 1 engine and try to figure this out. My thinking was that if it did turn out to be completely hopeless I could sell the engine or keep it for a VW and sell my car for parts. Judging by the response I have been getting and the fact that you already have one going I am feeling alot better about my project. Frankly, it's a big relief. So thanks, for the good information. You know that there is a lot of junky 912's out there that people might want to fix-up if it weren't for the cost of those engines. Perhaps we are on to something here that other enthusiasts will get into. I mean the Porsche 911 styling of the 912 is awsome and the car will only weight as much as much as an early superbeetle. My car is actually a 912 that had a 911 six engine installed into it and then the six was removed for parts by a guy in Florida who sold me the car without an engine. The title shows it being a 911 but the serial number is a 912. Very confusing. It is a 1969 model so I don't think it matters much as they were pretty much the same except for the engines. Mine has a 5 speed transmission which I believe is the same as the 901 except they call it a 902. What kind of flywheel are you running in your car? Please let me know and I am sure I will have more questions for you as I go. How does your 1641 go? Thanks again, Clark.
PS: To see my car go to my web page and down to the bottom and click on Porsche 911/912. Or click on www.geocities.com/clarkblumberg/911-912mainpage.html
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adam12er:
hey Clark. I too have a '69 912 and it is powered by a type 1 1641. I'll give you any info I have, keping in mind there are many ways to skin a 912. Anyway for a clutch you use a later bug cluctch and pressure plate. The one without the ring on the fingers of the pressure plate. This wil make it work with your release bearing. You may need to swap the lower engine studs from your 356 motor or a type IV as they are longer and will reach through your trans. The rear motor mount, wow what a pain in the ass. I used a bus motor with the stock mount under the bottom. Then I used the stock 912 mount up top and tied the two together by welding two steel pieces to the lower mount then bolting them to the 912 mount. So now it is rubber mounted and looks good from the top. I cut off the extra unused part of the lower bus mount. The tin was pretty easy to make, and a dog house shroud fits fine. The clutch pedal feels very light but seems to work great(stock pressure plate). The acc. cable was not too bad. the exhaust is a cheap bug header with the flange cut off and a 912 bursch type quiet pack (much shorter than a bug quiet pack) welded on to exit the factory cut-out. I run dual kadrons (air filters hit deck lid hinges) MSD 6A ignition and a mild cam. This set-up seems to work well as the rpm range works with the tranny. Let me know if I can help you ie. pictures, phone call etc. I have plans for turbo type 1 next. Good Luck Adam12<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-19-2001).]
Wow, this shop talk is great! Sure takes the mystery out of my project. When I first looked at a 912 engine it did not look all that different from a type 1. I guess that's because Porsche originally started out by modifing a vw 1 engine in the early 356 cars. However, when I got into it I could see a lot of differences. One was price. The cost of a 356/912 engine was clearly out of sight for me on my budget. I was starting out with nothing and I had engine quotes of between ten and twenty thousand dollars. Even if it was half that at five grand that was way too much for me. Therefore, I started building a VW engine. I read the 1971 book on how to Hot Rod a VW engine and he recommends that people use VW engines rather than the expensive 912 engines in their Volkswagons as he says that the 912/356 engines are not so powerfull and will not produce as much HP as a Hot Rodded VW - Even with super tuning. He also stated that there is very little performance equipment available for the four cylinder engine and parts pricing on Porsche parts are very expensive. Those are his words not mine and he's a very experienced man with engines (Bill Fisher). So, I figured I would build up a type 1 engine and try to figure this out. My thinking was that if it did turn out to be completely hopeless I could sell the engine or keep it for a VW and sell my car for parts. Judging by the response I have been getting and the fact that you already have one going I am feeling alot better about my project. Frankly, it's a big relief. So thanks, for the good information. You know that there is a lot of junky 912's out there that people might want to fix-up if it weren't for the cost of those engines. Perhaps we are on to something here that other enthusiasts will get into. I mean the Porsche 911 styling of the 912 is awsome and the car will only weight as much as much as an early superbeetle. My car is actually a 912 that had a 911 six engine installed into it and then the six was removed for parts by a guy in Florida who sold me the car without an engine. The title shows it being a 911 but the serial number is a 912. Very confusing. It is a 1969 model so I don't think it matters much as they were pretty much the same except for the engines. Mine has a 5 speed transmission which I believe is the same as the 901 except they call it a 902. What kind of flywheel are you running in your car? Please let me know and I am sure I will have more questions for you as I go. How does your 1641 go? Thanks again, Clark.
PS: To see my car go to my web page and down to the bottom and click on Porsche 911/912. Or click on www.geocities.com/clarkblumberg/911-912mainpage.html
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adam12er:
hey Clark. I too have a '69 912 and it is powered by a type 1 1641. I'll give you any info I have, keping in mind there are many ways to skin a 912. Anyway for a clutch you use a later bug cluctch and pressure plate. The one without the ring on the fingers of the pressure plate. This wil make it work with your release bearing. You may need to swap the lower engine studs from your 356 motor or a type IV as they are longer and will reach through your trans. The rear motor mount, wow what a pain in the ass. I used a bus motor with the stock mount under the bottom. Then I used the stock 912 mount up top and tied the two together by welding two steel pieces to the lower mount then bolting them to the 912 mount. So now it is rubber mounted and looks good from the top. I cut off the extra unused part of the lower bus mount. The tin was pretty easy to make, and a dog house shroud fits fine. The clutch pedal feels very light but seems to work great(stock pressure plate). The acc. cable was not too bad. the exhaust is a cheap bug header with the flange cut off and a 912 bursch type quiet pack (much shorter than a bug quiet pack) welded on to exit the factory cut-out. I run dual kadrons (air filters hit deck lid hinges) MSD 6A ignition and a mild cam. This set-up seems to work well as the rpm range works with the tranny. Let me know if I can help you ie. pictures, phone call etc. I have plans for turbo type 1 next. Good Luck Adam12<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-19-2001).]
-
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 12:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
hey again Clark. I am running a stock 200mm bus flywheel. I read what others had to say on the type IV forum. I find that the stock vw flywhel works just fine, no starter problems. I also agree that a type IV is a geat choice for these cars, high torque, reliable and inexspensive as well. I have also installed a porsche 2.0 914 type IV in my car and actually like the fit if the type 1 better. Unless of coarse I could afford a really cool upright cooling system. Also the reason the 912 was brought back with a type IV is because porsche needed a cheaper car to fill the gap between the 914 and 924 so they made a 912E. Not because they thought the type IV was so neat. The same reason our cars have a 356 motor in them. Because they had the motor technology and needed a cheaper car. Anyway, just my opinions. Yes, I too really like these forums and appreciate all the advise from others. Oh yeh, my type 1 works great, not as much torque as the type IV but spins 1,500 higher in the rpm range. So over all it works pretty good, and most of all it gets me driving..it's fun. Adam
-
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 12:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
adam12er- You're all wet! You can't put a type 1 in a 912! Theres no way a stock flywheel will work with that transmission. The ONLY recourse you have is to spend thousands of dollars on a big displacement type4 and use only dellorto carbs! Don't forget that the only option for cooling is the most expensive down the middle kit on the market. Oh, and you must also find what little bit of real knowledge you have on porsche and type 4 and press that issue until we are all sick of hearing about that "dead Horse" issue!
Just joking all, I'm pals with him.
dave.......
Just joking all, I'm pals with him.
dave.......
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- Posts: 177
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 12:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
Hello
Not because they thought the type IV was so neat. The same reason our cars have a 356 motor in them. Because they had the motor technology and needed a cheaper car.
Now in fact the 912 was cheaper but not in the quality. It may be seen as a poor mans Porsche but it had the same quality like the expensive cars. Some things where simpler but not made in a cheap way.
And there always had been Porsche drivers who didn´t need a complicatet and expensive engine to have fun and enjoy the Porsche feeling.
The 912E engine is a very complicatet story but Porsche investet very much to bring that engine to life and they needed to sale as much as possible to return there costs and 76 was not a very happy year for Porsche with echo from the energy crisis and the gap the 914 left untill the 924 came.
The 912E engine was much better then use the old 356 engine again and using a "upgraded" type 1 was even worser then using the 356 engine. Those engines would have died fast and make a bad reputation to the whole brand.
In fact Porsche thought the using from the type 4 in a 911 body was neat enough for some people and thats why they made it.
I have no problem if someone is using a type 1 in a 912 or even a 911 as long the owner knews the limitations and don´t except to have a solution par to the original engine.
If the owner likes to work a lot and drives always a hot wheel he will have to do many engine work while the rest from the chassis even didn´t get stressed.
But on normal driving the demanded horsepower is in the 30-50 HP range and a early 912 will make 80 mph topspeed with a 50 HP engine and needs some 15 sec to spool to 60 mph. This is good enough the get transportet and swim with the average traffic. Fuel consumption will be a bit higher.
Grüsse
Not because they thought the type IV was so neat. The same reason our cars have a 356 motor in them. Because they had the motor technology and needed a cheaper car.
Now in fact the 912 was cheaper but not in the quality. It may be seen as a poor mans Porsche but it had the same quality like the expensive cars. Some things where simpler but not made in a cheap way.
And there always had been Porsche drivers who didn´t need a complicatet and expensive engine to have fun and enjoy the Porsche feeling.
The 912E engine is a very complicatet story but Porsche investet very much to bring that engine to life and they needed to sale as much as possible to return there costs and 76 was not a very happy year for Porsche with echo from the energy crisis and the gap the 914 left untill the 924 came.
The 912E engine was much better then use the old 356 engine again and using a "upgraded" type 1 was even worser then using the 356 engine. Those engines would have died fast and make a bad reputation to the whole brand.
In fact Porsche thought the using from the type 4 in a 911 body was neat enough for some people and thats why they made it.
I have no problem if someone is using a type 1 in a 912 or even a 911 as long the owner knews the limitations and don´t except to have a solution par to the original engine.
If the owner likes to work a lot and drives always a hot wheel he will have to do many engine work while the rest from the chassis even didn´t get stressed.
But on normal driving the demanded horsepower is in the 30-50 HP range and a early 912 will make 80 mph topspeed with a 50 HP engine and needs some 15 sec to spool to 60 mph. This is good enough the get transportet and swim with the average traffic. Fuel consumption will be a bit higher.
Grüsse
- clarkblumberg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
Hello, Adam,
I must say this flywheel thing has me all confused as I looked up the part number for the 71 Bus Flywheel and I got 311 105 273A then I looked up the Flywheel for a 71 beetle and I got the same part number. Apparently, they are both 200mm, 12V, 130 teeth units. Are they similar? You said you noticed no troubles with the stock VW flywheel did you mean your Bus or a Late Beetle Flywheel? Do you know what year it is? Is there a difference. I also asked Roland to check this out for me. He is checking some old catalogs on this. Let me know THANKS,Clark.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adam12er:
hey again Clark. I am running a stock 200mm bus flywheel. I read what others had to say on the type IV forum. I find that the stock vw flywhel works just fine, no starter problems. I also agree that a type IV is a geat choice for these cars, high torque, reliable and inexspensive as well. I have also installed a porsche 2.0 914 type IV in my car and actually like the fit if the type 1 better. Unless of coarse I could afford a really cool upright cooling system. Also the reason the 912 was brought back with a type IV is because porsche needed a cheaper car to fill the gap between the 914 and 924 so they made a 912E. Not because they thought the type IV was so neat. The same reason our cars have a 356 motor in them. Because they had the motor technology and needed a cheaper car. Anyway, just my opinions. Yes, I too really like these forums and appreciate all the advise from others. Oh yeh, my type 1 works great, not as much torque as the type IV but spins 1,500 higher in the rpm range. So over all it works pretty good, and most of all it gets me driving..it's fun. Adam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-22-2001).]
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-22-2001).]
I must say this flywheel thing has me all confused as I looked up the part number for the 71 Bus Flywheel and I got 311 105 273A then I looked up the Flywheel for a 71 beetle and I got the same part number. Apparently, they are both 200mm, 12V, 130 teeth units. Are they similar? You said you noticed no troubles with the stock VW flywheel did you mean your Bus or a Late Beetle Flywheel? Do you know what year it is? Is there a difference. I also asked Roland to check this out for me. He is checking some old catalogs on this. Let me know THANKS,Clark.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adam12er:
hey again Clark. I am running a stock 200mm bus flywheel. I read what others had to say on the type IV forum. I find that the stock vw flywhel works just fine, no starter problems. I also agree that a type IV is a geat choice for these cars, high torque, reliable and inexspensive as well. I have also installed a porsche 2.0 914 type IV in my car and actually like the fit if the type 1 better. Unless of coarse I could afford a really cool upright cooling system. Also the reason the 912 was brought back with a type IV is because porsche needed a cheaper car to fill the gap between the 914 and 924 so they made a 912E. Not because they thought the type IV was so neat. The same reason our cars have a 356 motor in them. Because they had the motor technology and needed a cheaper car. Anyway, just my opinions. Yes, I too really like these forums and appreciate all the advise from others. Oh yeh, my type 1 works great, not as much torque as the type IV but spins 1,500 higher in the rpm range. So over all it works pretty good, and most of all it gets me driving..it's fun. Adam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-22-2001).]
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-22-2001).]
- clarkblumberg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:01 am
VW Type1 into a Porsche 912
Hi,
Well, I did some checking after I found out from Adam12er that a bus flywheel will fit into the transmission no problem as this is what he uses with his 912 running with a type 1 engine. I checked the part number of the 1971 Bus Flywheel a 12V, 130 tooth, 200mm wheel and it is a 311-105-273. Then I checked the part number of a 71 superbeetle and it is the same part number.
So I went and checked my flywheel which is off a 71 superbeetle and installed on my motor (which is out of the car) and I measured it and the transmission and found that:
The distance from the teeth of the flywheel to the teeth on the starter gear is approx. 0.350 inch. This means that the starter gear would have to move out at least that far in order to start engaging the teeth. I then energized the starter motor and found that it moves out approx. 0.700 inches. Therefore, I would have approximately 0.350 engagement or gear mesh between the two.
Considering that the starter and flywheel teeth are about half an inch wide that's pretty good.
To settle this Porsche versus VW flywheel argument I got an old Clymer 912 manual and found a diagram with dimensions of the 912 clutch it measures very, very close to my clutch so I am again sure that the super beetle clutch will work.
You said it in your email that the bus, super beetle and 356 are almost the same and I believe you are right.
One thing I also noticed was the bottom engine to transmission case studs need to be longer to bolt up to the Porsche transmission.
Thanks again, Clark.
FOR MORE INFORMATION ALSO SEE SAME TOPIC IN THE TYPE 4RUM.
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-27-2001).]
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-27-2001).]
Well, I did some checking after I found out from Adam12er that a bus flywheel will fit into the transmission no problem as this is what he uses with his 912 running with a type 1 engine. I checked the part number of the 1971 Bus Flywheel a 12V, 130 tooth, 200mm wheel and it is a 311-105-273. Then I checked the part number of a 71 superbeetle and it is the same part number.
So I went and checked my flywheel which is off a 71 superbeetle and installed on my motor (which is out of the car) and I measured it and the transmission and found that:
The distance from the teeth of the flywheel to the teeth on the starter gear is approx. 0.350 inch. This means that the starter gear would have to move out at least that far in order to start engaging the teeth. I then energized the starter motor and found that it moves out approx. 0.700 inches. Therefore, I would have approximately 0.350 engagement or gear mesh between the two.
Considering that the starter and flywheel teeth are about half an inch wide that's pretty good.
To settle this Porsche versus VW flywheel argument I got an old Clymer 912 manual and found a diagram with dimensions of the 912 clutch it measures very, very close to my clutch so I am again sure that the super beetle clutch will work.
You said it in your email that the bus, super beetle and 356 are almost the same and I believe you are right.
One thing I also noticed was the bottom engine to transmission case studs need to be longer to bolt up to the Porsche transmission.
Thanks again, Clark.
FOR MORE INFORMATION ALSO SEE SAME TOPIC IN THE TYPE 4RUM.
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-27-2001).]
[This message has been edited by clarkblumberg (edited 10-27-2001).]