That's one of "those" questions that will get you a diiferent responce depending on who you ask.
I have owned two of them, a 78 and an 86, both wedgemated to Berg flywheels. The quality is outstanding, as nice as some of the high-dollar V-8 stuff. They even look good. I also like the fact that I can get them with the much stronger type-4 center main, important whith as troker engine. Weather or not that quality is worth the price, depends on you, your budget, and what you intend to do with your engine. Their are several other good quality cranks available for a little less money.
Berg cranks...worth the money?
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
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bugnut68
Berg cranks...worth the money?
Part of the problem with the Volkswagen hobby is that there are a lot of people who think because they are relatively inexpensive cars the parts should be inexpensive as well. For me, I've learned a lot of lessons the hard way, in terms of the aftermarket and will not likely have a non-stock engine for a daily driver unless I can afford to do it the right way the first time. Fortunately, we have a large industry in which it is possible to get a variety of components of excellent quality, but the buyer also needs to do some research for his or herself beforehand and also have a very clear picture of what they want out of their engine. The Berg's products are intended to give as long as if not longer than stock for a daily driven car (as stated in their catalogs), which as far as I'm concerned (just my opinion, remember!) is a car you can get into and drive anywhere, anytime, anyplace. I've read a lot of flame posts all over the net regarding the Berg's stuff and this is my opinion for whatever it's worth. Personally, I'd rather do without for awhile and get the very best available rather than try to save bucks, especially if the car is something I want to use in a very practical manner...(again, a very subjective term!). These are just my opinions, so please don't take this as preaching or opportunity to flame 
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JohnConnolly
- Posts: 3336
- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
they ARE some of the nicest cranks made. Whether you need one of those on a mild 1776 (or 2275) is a different decision altogether.
I've come to conclude that the Berg parts are perfect for the guy that wants a 2L engine that makes 80hp and runs 200k miles, and they can tell everyone it's an all Berg engine.
However, OUR customer wants more for his money (value). There are a lot of other cranks for a LOT less $ that you would never be able to tell the difference either driving the car, or inspecting it 100k miles down the road (but it's not a "Berg" crank).
You can form your own decision, but I'm sure Matt Harris and Dan Ruble may help you form your own opinion.
I do feel the Berg cranks are outstanding. However, when I build an engine for myself or someone else, I use a $425 crank and use the $ saved for headwork and other stuff.
John
Aircooled.Net Inc.
[This message has been edited by JohnConnolly (edited 08-27-2002).]
I've come to conclude that the Berg parts are perfect for the guy that wants a 2L engine that makes 80hp and runs 200k miles, and they can tell everyone it's an all Berg engine.
However, OUR customer wants more for his money (value). There are a lot of other cranks for a LOT less $ that you would never be able to tell the difference either driving the car, or inspecting it 100k miles down the road (but it's not a "Berg" crank).
You can form your own decision, but I'm sure Matt Harris and Dan Ruble may help you form your own opinion.
I do feel the Berg cranks are outstanding. However, when I build an engine for myself or someone else, I use a $425 crank and use the $ saved for headwork and other stuff.
John
Aircooled.Net Inc.
[This message has been edited by JohnConnolly (edited 08-27-2002).]
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sinikl
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
i went thru similar "geez i'll never be able to afford a long-lived crank" pangs a few weeks ago.
as to whether their cranks work, i think "please contact us if your berg stroker crank has gone more than 238,141 miles without requiring a regrind, as that is the current record" says A LOT.
now as to whether you'll need a berg crank i couldn't tell you from firsthand experience... but EVERY last person i asked on web forums said you can definitely use a quality forged crank (dms, cb, and bugpack were the 3 most mentioned) with no problems. then i asked who had high mileage motors with those cranks and got similar answers.
the popular opinion from what i can tell is that berg cranks are jewels, but hardly anyone needs that kinda crank for the money.
sean
as to whether their cranks work, i think "please contact us if your berg stroker crank has gone more than 238,141 miles without requiring a regrind, as that is the current record" says A LOT.
now as to whether you'll need a berg crank i couldn't tell you from firsthand experience... but EVERY last person i asked on web forums said you can definitely use a quality forged crank (dms, cb, and bugpack were the 3 most mentioned) with no problems. then i asked who had high mileage motors with those cranks and got similar answers.
the popular opinion from what i can tell is that berg cranks are jewels, but hardly anyone needs that kinda crank for the money.
sean
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[email protected]
- Posts: 929
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
DMS DMS DMS
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bugnut68
Berg cranks...worth the money?
Good point, John...I'm not plugging Berg stuff or trying to make waves. I, too, have heard lots of good stuff about CB, DMS (especially) and Bugpack cranks and I'm sure those are decent as well. VWs forever!
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Stripped66
- Posts: 1904
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
From a consumer's point of view, the Berg crank comes at a premium due to their relatively low production level. Whether you want to pay that premium is up to you, your expectations, and your budget.
FWIW, consider their Porsche-journal stroker. The Berg's designed the crank with narrower rod journals allowing thicker cheeks to provide, overall, better strength in the crank. However, a cheaper forged crank from CB, Bugpack, or Scat, or even a welded stroker from DPR or DMS can have great longevity at a fraction of the price.
The analogy is the same for Shad's new cylinders and plain old Mahle/Cima's. A lot of thought and engineering went into Shad's product, his low production level and high standards demand a premium for him to break even, let alone make a profit...however, Mahle/Cima's work well too, as many people on this board can attest, at a fraction of the price.
I would say the engine is only as good as the cheapest part. A quality, expensive crank is not going to help you when your cheap heads drop a valve. If buying a Berg crank forces you to skimp on other components due to your budget, then follow John's advice.
FWIW, consider their Porsche-journal stroker. The Berg's designed the crank with narrower rod journals allowing thicker cheeks to provide, overall, better strength in the crank. However, a cheaper forged crank from CB, Bugpack, or Scat, or even a welded stroker from DPR or DMS can have great longevity at a fraction of the price.
The analogy is the same for Shad's new cylinders and plain old Mahle/Cima's. A lot of thought and engineering went into Shad's product, his low production level and high standards demand a premium for him to break even, let alone make a profit...however, Mahle/Cima's work well too, as many people on this board can attest, at a fraction of the price.
I would say the engine is only as good as the cheapest part. A quality, expensive crank is not going to help you when your cheap heads drop a valve. If buying a Berg crank forces you to skimp on other components due to your budget, then follow John's advice.
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MagOO
- Posts: 1126
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
John,after an additional 800.00 in headwork,and exhuast, I'm pretty sure it was making closer to 90 hp.....
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Vgonman
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
Says it all........I am thinking of making my current 1776 a stroker with a 78 Berg crank...........
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Glenn
- Posts: 5108
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
I have a Berg 74mm in my 1904. After 80k miles it just needed to be polished and i reinstalled it. Thats's getting your money's worth.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs
74 Beetle Resto page
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs
74 Beetle Resto page
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Mitch
- Posts: 1101
- Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
"I've come to conclude that the overpriced Berg parts are perfect for the guy that wants a 2L engine that makes 80hp and runs 200k miles, and they can tell everyone it's an all Berg engine."
Next time I see Clyde I'll tell him what you said. BTW 90% of the engine builders in CA will disagree with you. Your not just paying for the part, you are paying for the labor involved in inspecting every single part before you buy it from them. Quality, a word that the VW after-market industry has forgotten a long time ago. Read the VW Trends interviews with all the "Best" engine builders in the country. They all said the same thing, the biggest obstacle is finding quality parts to build a engine. I've heard and seen horrid stories about your so called quality parts suppliers. Brand new cranks, heads, pistons and cases being crack when received from reputable retails and distributors
Steve Hollingsworth of AZ which owns his own VW shop is a aquatints of mine and person friend of a buddy has a "ALL Berg" 2 liter that is in the 140-160 hp range.
I don't want to start a flame war. A lot of you out there just have to remember a few individuals on here have a conflict of interest here. They own their own VW business and they are trying to make a name for themselves and well make money off you if you go to them. Just food for thought.
[This message has been edited by Mitch (edited 08-27-2002).]
Next time I see Clyde I'll tell him what you said. BTW 90% of the engine builders in CA will disagree with you. Your not just paying for the part, you are paying for the labor involved in inspecting every single part before you buy it from them. Quality, a word that the VW after-market industry has forgotten a long time ago. Read the VW Trends interviews with all the "Best" engine builders in the country. They all said the same thing, the biggest obstacle is finding quality parts to build a engine. I've heard and seen horrid stories about your so called quality parts suppliers. Brand new cranks, heads, pistons and cases being crack when received from reputable retails and distributors
Steve Hollingsworth of AZ which owns his own VW shop is a aquatints of mine and person friend of a buddy has a "ALL Berg" 2 liter that is in the 140-160 hp range.
I don't want to start a flame war. A lot of you out there just have to remember a few individuals on here have a conflict of interest here. They own their own VW business and they are trying to make a name for themselves and well make money off you if you go to them. Just food for thought.
[This message has been edited by Mitch (edited 08-27-2002).]
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Eaallred
- Posts: 2485
- Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
Berg does make some pretty nice stuff, but my problem with them is, when you read all thier writings, they are basically telling you that if you did not buy a 'Berg' part, then you've bought junk, and it will not last.
I think it's arrogant to walk around the VW scene thinking that you are the only game in town that makes a product worth using. Who are they to think that are the only people able to make a product that will work?
It's that whole attitude that Berg has that stops me from buying anything else from them.
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Eric
64 Bug
64 Bus
I think it's arrogant to walk around the VW scene thinking that you are the only game in town that makes a product worth using. Who are they to think that are the only people able to make a product that will work?
It's that whole attitude that Berg has that stops me from buying anything else from them.
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Eric
64 Bug
64 Bus
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Mitch
- Posts: 1101
- Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
Sorry you feel that way. the Bergs are great people. I had a chance to meet them two years ago on the Berg Cruise. Like I said in the pervious post, they are a business and they want you to buy from them. Make your own opinion on parts, not what someone tells you. Gather the facts and make up your own mind. I've never built a totally Berg motor but I've used many of their parts in my engines. Many years of test and experience go into their parts not just proof on paper with mathematical equations.
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sinikl
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:01 am
Berg cranks...worth the money?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eaallred:
<B>Berg does make some pretty nice stuff, but my problem with them is, when you read all thier writings, they are basically telling you that if you did not buy a 'Berg' part, then you've bought junk, and it will not last.
I think it's arrogant to walk around the VW scene thinking that you are the only game in town that makes a product worth using. Who are they to think that are the only people able to make a product that will work?
It's that whole attitude that Berg has that stops me from buying anything else from them.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
my take on what you said is this: at least berg gives you _details_ about the parts to help you make a decision. he also does imply others' parts are inferior, and that gets to be a bit of a drag, but most of the time i felt i could filter some of that stuff out and just focus on the data about his products he's giving you. it doesn't seem like any of the other aftermarket ppl are interested in detailed product descriptions (at least not in written form), so there's no way to compare their stuff to berg -- it makes you suspect their quality.
example: the stuff about the metal graining in the forging of his cranks was really mostly going over my head. however, once you read thru it a few times you really start to understand it, and understand moreover that a lot of work went into his crank. now take a cb crank or a bugpack crank or a dms crank or whatever -- very little to NO lengthy description provided by the manufacturer. scat pretty much sells their cranks by saying "yup, it's a crankshaft, all right".... now i know from talking to ppl that the cb, bugpack and dms cranks seem to be living allright and are quality pieces, but if i didn't have a place like this to ask newbie questions, how would i know?? i would buy berg stuff, because he makes the effort to tell you what goes into EACH AND EVERY part.
the bergs do imply others' products are inferior, but at the same time, you know exactly what's in their stuff so you aren't getting fleeced at all.
what we need is a dialogue, where the other ppl come back and say, "no, i don't have my cranks forged in sweden by an oem porsche supplier, but so what? my cranks have lived x miles in a motor making y horsepower that is daily driven on the surface of the sun" or something like that. that lends credibility.
i think berg has nice stuff and a great catalog, i just can't afford it. but i think the catalog should be a model for the rest of the industry. i'm buying my tranny mounts from them because they explain WHY i should and why i SHOULDN't use something else instead of just listing a part no and a price. not trying to flame either berg or any other manufacturer, just my .02.
sean
<B>Berg does make some pretty nice stuff, but my problem with them is, when you read all thier writings, they are basically telling you that if you did not buy a 'Berg' part, then you've bought junk, and it will not last.
I think it's arrogant to walk around the VW scene thinking that you are the only game in town that makes a product worth using. Who are they to think that are the only people able to make a product that will work?
It's that whole attitude that Berg has that stops me from buying anything else from them.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
my take on what you said is this: at least berg gives you _details_ about the parts to help you make a decision. he also does imply others' parts are inferior, and that gets to be a bit of a drag, but most of the time i felt i could filter some of that stuff out and just focus on the data about his products he's giving you. it doesn't seem like any of the other aftermarket ppl are interested in detailed product descriptions (at least not in written form), so there's no way to compare their stuff to berg -- it makes you suspect their quality.
example: the stuff about the metal graining in the forging of his cranks was really mostly going over my head. however, once you read thru it a few times you really start to understand it, and understand moreover that a lot of work went into his crank. now take a cb crank or a bugpack crank or a dms crank or whatever -- very little to NO lengthy description provided by the manufacturer. scat pretty much sells their cranks by saying "yup, it's a crankshaft, all right".... now i know from talking to ppl that the cb, bugpack and dms cranks seem to be living allright and are quality pieces, but if i didn't have a place like this to ask newbie questions, how would i know?? i would buy berg stuff, because he makes the effort to tell you what goes into EACH AND EVERY part.
the bergs do imply others' products are inferior, but at the same time, you know exactly what's in their stuff so you aren't getting fleeced at all.
what we need is a dialogue, where the other ppl come back and say, "no, i don't have my cranks forged in sweden by an oem porsche supplier, but so what? my cranks have lived x miles in a motor making y horsepower that is daily driven on the surface of the sun" or something like that. that lends credibility.
i think berg has nice stuff and a great catalog, i just can't afford it. but i think the catalog should be a model for the rest of the industry. i'm buying my tranny mounts from them because they explain WHY i should and why i SHOULDN't use something else instead of just listing a part no and a price. not trying to flame either berg or any other manufacturer, just my .02.
sean