CNC ported heads .....good product?

PHAT 4 · Post by **PHAT 4** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:12 pm

Has anyone used the super duper ultra mega magical 044's (or what ever there called) on their cars ...they seem like a good idea but I took a closer look and it did'nt seem like the exhaust ports were machined bigger...I don't know anything about them and can't find any literature on them ...so some flow numbers ,exhaust port size, and cost would be great.

Thanks guys Jamey

James2 · Post by **James2** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:44 pm

There's a couple of people on the cal-look.com forum using them and like them. I think they are a good value, but a hand ported head is better.

The finish on the ports is rough and needs some hand finishing to be "right". Also there has been some question to the quality of the valves used.

Still, a comparable hand ported set of heads is almost twice as much. They claim 200 cfm on the intake.

McBernie · Post by **McBernie** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:43 pm

CB CNC heads are just fine as they are-If you go to the trouble of polishing out the machine marks in the ports you may gain an extra 1 bhp-not worth the effort.As far as valves go the CB single groove valves are just fine.You will only have trouble with valves if you have valve float or worn guides.If you have money to burn then spend it on the Ti retainer option and a bigger crank don't waste it reworking something that don't need it

vdubsinjensen · Post by **vdubsinjensen** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:09 am

I just finished using these heads on a 2165 for a customers'ghia vert'.It's running 48idf's,10.3CR,Web 86B,1 5/8" exhaust,bla,bla.It's very drivable and hauls ass!We had it on the dyno and it pulled 155HP@6,000Rpm.We believe it had much more but the fuel pump wasn't enough,and we didn't get to try much else with it.It's since been installed in the car,where it comes alive at 4000,and pulls all the way up to 8,000.The customer is thrilled with it.For the money,it would be pretty tough to find a head that flows like the CNC's.Paul www.jbbugs.com

danimal · Post by **danimal** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:05 pm

call cb for the flow numbers, exhaust vs. intake... and if you want a daily driver motor, ask 'em if they have a cnc head where that little support bump around the valve guide isn't machined out.

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

PHAT 4 · Post by **PHAT 4** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 3:16 pm

CB's website claim 120% better flow than stock. There heads come with 1 5/8's exhaust ports....do you guys think I should goto 1 3/4 for a car with these specs..
-2275cc
-DeMello full circle crank (wedgemated)
-H-beam rods
-k8 cam
-scat lifters
-12lb flywheel
-48 idf's
-9 to 1 comp.
-straight cut gears
-balanced blueprinted
-close ratio gear box
-drag radials
...all in a car that weighs approx.1700lb w/driver...This is not a daily driver ..just a street/strip car.
I was hoping to have a 12 sec. car ...is this possible?

Jamey

Stripped66 · Post by **Stripped66** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by danimal:
call cb for the flow numbers, exhaust vs. intake... and if you want a daily driver motor, ask 'em if they have a cnc head where that little support bump around the valve guide isn't machined out.

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Dan,
was the CB flow number dispute ever resolved? Last I read (I'm not up to date), their flow bench was designed for, and only accurate at 15"...and CB reported their flow at 25". I'm just wondering if CB has a new bench or if some other discussion verified their numbers are accurate ('cuz again, I can't remember seeing the end of this discussion).
FWIW, CB claims a little more flow out of their heads than AJ Sims race ported 044's (and AJ uses bigger valves...). Not saying the CB's are bad, but a number is only worth the device that is spitting them out...

McBernie · Post by **McBernie** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 5:24 pm

You can make 200hp with those heads,who cares what numbers they flow.Hot Vws did a flow test on a few different heads and the CB ported 044's with 44 intakes flowed 200cfm at 15" which equals 200hp not the CNC'd but the same port

avachamp · Post by **avachamp** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:05 am

All of CB's head work is done by a company called Direct Motion,using a 5 axis cnc. Here's the link- http://www.directmotion.com/index.html

James2 · Post by **James2** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:33 am

that's a very good combo IMHO. Bump the CR to 11-1 and run race gas DTD shows 205 hp. You could hit high 11s.

Do not let anyone talk you out of that cam, unless you go to a FK-44 or web 86b.

I would probably go with a reg CCW crank, but that up to you.

If you went to SE ported head with 46X38 valves and flowing over 220cfm on the intake DTD shows 215 hp. You could step up to the K-10 cam, but now your carbs are limiting you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PHAT 4:
CB's website claim 120% better flow than stock. There heads come with 1 5/8's exhaust ports....do you guys think I should goto 1 3/4 for a car with these specs..
-2275cc
-DeMello full circle crank (wedgemated)
-H-beam rods
-k8 cam
-scat lifters
-12lb flywheel
-48 idf's
-9 to 1 comp.
-straight cut gears
-balanced blueprinted
-close ratio gear box
-drag radials
...all in a car that weighs approx.1700lb w/driver...This is not a daily driver ..just a street/strip car.
I was hoping to have a 12 sec. car ...is this possible?

Jamey <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PHAT 4 · Post by **PHAT 4** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:01 am

Thanks James2...but what size exhaust should I go with 1 5/8 or 1 3/4?

As for the cam...I'm sold on it ...I like the power it makes throghout the rev's....good streetable power.

Jamey

mharney · Post by **mharney** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:09 am

I was looking at them and only saw the 42mm intakes at cbperformance.com, and saw the price of about $700 each. I guess these are a race head not really for the street?

Looking at comparable flow numbers on AJ Sims page, these flow like his race heads.

------------------
My VW Page

Chiba · Post by **Chiba** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:30 am

Are you sure it's each ? on the order page it says heads not head.

danimal · Post by **danimal** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stripped66:
 Hey Dan,
was the CB flow number dispute ever resolved? Last I read (I'm not up to date), their flow bench was designed for, and only accurate at 15"...and CB reported their flow at 25".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if it's accurate at 15", the numbers can be accurately converted to 25"... i agree with ya that it's only as accurate as the flow bench is to begin with.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by McBernie:
You can make 200hp with those heads,who cares what numbers they flow. Hot Vws did a flow test on a few different heads and the CB ported 044's with 44 intakes flowed 200cfm at 15" which equals 200hp not the CNC'd but the same port <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

people who want to make real h.p. care about what numbers they flow... intake flow alone is meaningless; what good is a head if the intake port flows 200cfm, but the exhaust only flows 100cfm? think about it.

then ask yourself where the port design came from in the first place, and why valve guide support in the head is significant.

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

Chris Andrews · Post by **Chris Andrews** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:43 pm

For my humble 2¢ worth. Our machinist (the same one that is machining our new 2 piece aluminum engine cases) has a new Superflo flowbench with data logging & swirl meter. I have made contact with a VW parts supplier that handles these cylinder heads and have been given permission to ask our machinist to flow test these cylinder heads & critique them. In addition, this VW parts supplier has other cylinder heads that have been CNC ported by Direct Motion. In addition, the parts supplier asks that other readily available over-the-counter, as cast cylinder heads be flow tested too. It shall be interesting to see what the test results may conclude from an industry standard bench.
By the way, this flow bench is capable of flow readings up to 40 inches of water pressure.

Chris Andrews
General Partner
Dyno-Soar Products, LLC.

PS.

Just for referance, DKP III club member, Jim Kurlinski, finished assembly of an 84 x 90.5 (2161) 8.43:1 CR, 43.7 x 37.5 welded 040 casting cylinder heads, Scat-Trac IDA manifolds, stock 48 IDA's w/ 40 mm venturis, a Babe Erson custom grind cam (something that I had Babe grind, taking in consideration the air flow curve of the intake & exhaust), Berg 1.45:1 rockers, a genuine Phoenix Headers 1 5/8" exhaust w/ a Tiger fabbed 2½ Magnaflo muffler. This engine produced 171 HP ~~ TO THE TIRES. It produced the HP from 5000 - 7000 RPM. It also made > 150 HP ~~ TO THE TIRES @ 4000 RPM. Airspeed and airflow through the intake system (along with cam timing) is attributed to these HP figures. Oh & before I forget, the fuel pump used to fuel this engine is a Faucet 4 psi electric pump with VW factory stock 5.5mm fuel line.

VW enthusiast Bob Hemphill had disclosed to me his findings that the VW powertrain absorbs approximately 13% of power produced.

Do the math. The above 171 HP figure ~~ TO THE TIRES, equates to > 196 HP @ the flywheel.

The chassis dyno operator suggested that with further tuning (they only made 5 pulls) more peak HP may be obtained. However, since Jim didn't have the time to fine tune this combination, these power figures will have to do for now.

FYI: This engine once belonged to DKP III club member Danny Gabbert. I purchased this engine from Danny, ran the cylinder heads & P/C's in my 78 x 90.5, 7:1 CR engine in a 2040# car on SR 165 radials & ran a 13.371 ET @ 100.237 MPH in 3 gears w/ a stock ratio gearbox @ Sacramento BOR in '96. The above engine now belongs to Jim Kurlinski's uncle from the central California area & is installed in his '66 Cal-Look sedan. He hopes to see 12.70 - 12.80 ET's with a 3 gear tranny.

[This message has been edited by Chris Andrews (edited 08-24-2002).]