Type 1 vs. Type 4

Oliver Knuf · Post by **Oliver Knuf** » Tue May 22, 2001 2:23 am

The only difference in rotating weight is meanwhile only the crank. Rods and pistons can be the same, e.g. a 82mm crank with 5.352" carillo-style rods on a chevy diameter with 94 or 96mm pistons, JE or something else!
The heads on highly ported Type 4's flow very good, even with this damn exhaust port style. There are many tuners, who worked on this problem. At first an American firm from older days, Arayo. They did a head with a Type 1 exhaust port, the first I know. It worked never well, rumours told, but the idea was good.
Pauter and Scat heads were set up for years to get enough performance out of the Type 4, even welded down porsche heads (2 instead of 3 chambers per head) with overhead cams, driven over the crank was performed by Holzapfel.
In the late 60's and early 70's, a famous tuner of all kinds of engines called Ludwig Apfelbeck built cross-flow heads for the Type 1 and the Type 4 with massive hp-outputs on very small engines (I think it was for the formula super-vee series, but only in the project phase, around 100hp per 1000cc's)!
Even Eurorace welds on a special 911-style port on the newer square port bus heads, I never tested them, but they look really good.
In Germany are a few tuners, who did testing on bringing the oval exhaust port to a bigger square port form by welding together with special exhaust flanges! Another good example is a setup called Competition Eliminator-Style for the Type 4, sand casted heads, either air- or watercooled with the rocker setup from the Type 4, but mostly looking like a CB Competition Elli!
I prefer the standerd oval style, ported to the biggest possible diameter to get enough flow, HP outputs are massive enough for road applications, racing on small cc engines is also working very well.
But is this the question? The Type 4 is able to reach 180-200HP on a driveable street basis, what do you do on a Type 1 for that! How many miles can you drive a Type 1 with that HP output? Which cam do you need on the same Type 1, when you drive only a 296° cam on the Type 4? CC's is all I can say for the Type 4, massive 103mm bores make the power, even if the flame travel is slower!
Besides a double spark head conversion is available here for a long while (possible on all heads), with good working electronic ignitions and with an opposite sitting plug, not with a parallel sitting plug, to get the best burn!

Hope this helps!

Oliver Knuf · Post by **Oliver Knuf** » Tue May 22, 2001 2:25 am

Sorry, I wanted to post a reply, not a new topic!

BergRace · Post by **BergRace** » Tue May 22, 2001 4:14 am

Welcome onboard Oliver, good to see you here!!
Your forum seems to say the least very slow these days, is this due to the separation of English/German languages ?

I will be in touch hopefully real soon.

J.

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-56 T1 hopefully soon with a F.I. T4 (AN engine)

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Tue May 22, 2001 1:27 pm

Well said Oliver !My sentiments entirely.My friend Russ Fellows used to run T4 heads ported to the max and achieved 260bhp with a 2.4 turbo.He then fitted Porsche OHC heads and gained 50 extra BHP.
=129BHP per litre.
So the lack of T4 exhaust restriction accounts for some of the gain, plus the more direct route for the inlet gasses due to the increased overall diameter of the inlet tract add up to the total 50 horse gain.
We assume.
Oh did I mention it has a stock 71 stroke crank and stock rods?
I don't think a T1 would achive those HP figures on stock crank or rods.

[This message has been edited by Bobtail (edited 05-22-2001).]

Steve Arndt · Post by **Steve Arndt** » Tue May 22, 2001 1:40 pm

Oliver,

Do you have any more info on these CE style T4 bore spacing watercooled heads? Or do I have to make my own?

Oh yeah, quit playing lazy man on the computer and get on the flow bench! I'm almost ready to die wating! lol.

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Steve Arndt

newestone · Post by **newestone** » Tue May 22, 2001 1:59 pm

how much work is involved in using the 911 heads and what is the cost? sounds interesting.

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Tue May 22, 2001 2:20 pm

Well it's a relative to your talent or wallet! In all honesty it's a lot of work Russ maintains that the total cost would have bought him a pair of pauter heads.
However, it does mean that he can use it as a daily driver.Herr Holzapfel used Porsche barrels and pistons which require the case to be modded to re-space the studs.He also had new camboxes cast.
Russ went an easier route and used 104 barrels and Porsche 944 pistons, so it uses stock T4 stud spacing.
This meant that the Porsche heads need to have the stud spacing modded to T4 spec.
This was done by enlarging the original holes .This puts the heads closer together so the cam box bolt holes don't line up.
We sorted this by using aluminum 8 mm dowel and repositioning the holes.
Then the camshafts...........These were made by piper who misread the instructions and made them the same as a 911 but with 1 and 4 missing.What we needed was 1,2,5,6.
Ah well we got what we wanted in the end.
If this does'nt put you off I'll be surprised !!

dan · Post by **dan** » Tue May 22, 2001 5:19 pm

>>>Oh did I mention it has a stock 71 stroke crank and stock rods?
I don't think a T1 would achive those HP figures on stock crank or rods<<<

stock type 1 counterweighted cranks mated to stock type 1 rods have turned over 9,500 rpms numerous times on many vw race cars... we are talking about 200 hp at over 9,500 rpms... that might be the limit of the stock type 1 rod, but i'd guess that the crank is good for more than that.

stock type 1 cases are good for over 450+ hp, as proven by pra pro turbo racer manny flores, and others... manny ran the same case for over three seasons; at one point he went the entire year without splitting the case between races.

overall, type 1 stroker cranks, long rods, and type 1 big-valve aftermarket heads are cheaper and more plentiful than they have ever been.

yes, you can spend an absolute fortune on type 4 heads, and get good performance, but it's much cheaper to build a 2.0 liter type 1 and boost it... you will end up with lots more h.p., and if you run a milder cam and set the compression low, it will live for a long time on the street.

we only have to look at what that turbo-keith(?) guy did at carlsbad last weekend... didn't he run a 10.36@134 mph(?), 1915cc's(?), with a 1900 lb. street car?

i've never seen or heard of a type 4 that actually delivered that level of performance.

have you?

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

Post by **Tom Notch** » Tue May 22, 2001 7:43 pm

Hmmmm, I haven't seen any posts claiming the T4 is the hot ticket for a drag motor. 'Cuz if it was the superior drag motor , then I guess the new T1 2213 going into our drag Ghia is a waste of money! I can also testify that the T1 rods and crank are quite up to the task of delievering HP, our old Ghia 1776 motor ran 12.2s with non-welded heads. Properly prepped stock rods and a Berg CW crank. My street bug runs a 2161 that has had the crap ran out of it, but not without some maintenace occasionaly.

No Dan, nobody here claims the T4 is a better motor for drag racing than a T1. However, there are some here that feel they like the t4 better than the t1 for their usage whatever that may be or for whatever reason they have. And for that reason I will always give those people their due respect.

Take for example my latest ride. It won't fit your Cal Look mold, it won't fit your T1 mold, it won't fit your turbo mold. But it does fit my American sense of Hot Rodding by having a big block and an automatic. It wassn't built for straight line speed acceleration tests. It wasn't built for rallying, road racing, or autobahn burning. But it was built by me for my sense of what I wanted in a car for comfortable street cruz'n. Torque on demand, pull from any RPM, and cruz comfortably at or above any posted speed limit. My 2161 wouldn't fill those requirements.

So go ahead and keep trying to put down the poor unloved T4, that won't bother us in the least. We'll just figure out a better mouse trap. Remember that the t1 has had 50 years of developement, and 35 yrs. of So Cal speed merchants attention. For some there are other paths and different drummers.

Peace, bro

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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

dan · Post by **dan** » Tue May 22, 2001 9:25 pm

>>>merchants attention. For some there are other paths and different drummers<<<

hey, no flames from me either, right?

the thing that gets lost when talking type 4 is that h.p. at the dragstrip is the same as h.p. everywhere else, period... you can't magically create more power by cruising the autobahn instead of drag racing.

but that seems to be the type 4 myth, i.e., given equal displacement... "drive me and you'll never go back to to a type 1"

you can design any motor to make more h.p. or torque at any given rpm range... so where is the power/torque/h.p. advantage with a 2.0 liter type 4 over a 2.0 liter type 1?

dan
oceanstreetvideo.com

Post by **Tom Notch** » Tue May 22, 2001 10:31 pm

But mine is a 2.7, built for torque, like around 180 ft lbs, with over 80% of that available over a 4000 rpm spread, top rpm 6k. I don't think you can do that with a t1 and be reliable for a long time. Even my short rodded 2161 won't come close to a torque spread like that, with a k8, k10, or the 86c I've run. Just different characteristics.

HP and torque are two different things and not always related the same in different types of motors. People tend to build long rod T1s and get the power peak narrowed but still quite large. If you believe some peoples ideas on rod length you can understand why the t4 has a wider power band typically but not nearly as high. Again the heads play into this, too. T1s generally need to be wound up and make power thru rpm (all motor stuff, no other stuff to confuse the issue) because they breathe so well and that's where the power comes from. So the T1 is maximized for that. But they loose the torque down low, and an 86 stroke won't make up all that is lost due to cam choices that make power thru rpm and the longer rods to ease the side thrusts. Remember that torque and hp are equal at 5250 rpm and torque is falling above that, but hp is still usually climbing steeply and making use of those wonderful heads ported by (insert favorite porter here), Yeah, Baby!! big hp.

Not so with the lowly t4. Unless you rebuild the head or make a major new one, the damn thing won't flow squat above 6000. So these motors are made big and the cam specs are quite conservative by T1 standards. But the torque curve becomes fat and when it meets the hp curve at 5250, it is more closely in line with the hp curve. And remenber that the rods are .300 to .400 or so shorter than a stock T1 rod. This gives the engine that grunt that is so much fun on the street or on the track pulling out of corners. Just a different power curve that the T1 can't duplicate.

But its not a drag race motor. The T4 likes a 3.30 or so 1st gear and a 4.12 or 3.88 to make use of its torque, how many drag race t1s will pull those gears?. These two engines were just different paths that were taken by the VW engineers. And that holds true in the aftermarket HP world, too. Unfortunately, VW did a couple of not so brite things with the T4, and I feel that some of the aftermarket people shunned them due to the CARB rules (the wasser fits in here, too), it was too damn expensive to get the stuff legalized for street use.
Look what aircooled engine is the choice for offroaders- 3L t4s due to the torque, FAT has done quite well there with them.

The T4 is not a drag engine. The T1 is extremely well suited for drag use. Apples and Oranges, but from the same tree. Again the T4 is not a drag motor but a helluva street motor.

Does this make any sense to you, Dan? Or have I screwed up somewhere and.........?

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Tom Notch
Tom's Old VW Home

Oliver Knuf · Post by **Oliver Knuf** » Wed May 23, 2001 2:12 am

The development time of the Type 4 is also over 30 years in our small country, so you can expect much more than any US shop/privateer has ever reached. It's no wife-tale...
A 2.0l (stock 71mm crank and rods with 94mm Mahle B Type 1 pistons) Type 4 engine with a ~286° cam, 8.2-8.4:1 c/r, 42mm/36mm valves with 40mm Webers and a 1 5/8" exhaust produces around 130-135HP@5500-5600rpm, but BHP, not SAE! Such an engine pulls up to 175-180Nm@4900-5100rpm! With 44mm/38mm valves, 296-300° cam and a c/r of 9.5:1 you'll reach easily the 155-160HP@6200-6300rpm mark with a torque rate around 185-190NmQ5500rpm. The latest 2.0l Kaefer-Cup Type 4 engines reach 190HP under 7000rpm.

Btw, Jake, 345HP, really? Remmele heads? Ask him twice to get the correct answer! He would be one of the fastest, maybe the fastest here in Europe with such an engine!

Hope, that these examples help!

Bobtail · Post by **Bobtail** » Wed May 23, 2001 2:57 pm

The common thread to all these arguments is that,
Type 4 engines are well suited to big horsepower and torque as well as reliability read streetable .
Type 1 engines are well suited to stripped down to the bone no cooling high horsepower or medium quick streeter.
and since when does any type 1 have a <<<stock type 1 COUNTERWEIGHTED crank >>>?

129bhp per litre=310 BHP ON A STOCK CRANK AND RODS

[This message has been edited by Bobtail (edited 05-23-2001).]