Spra-coupe Transaxle
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Spra-coupe Transaxle
Hello, I kind of stumbled in here.. I'm a farmer in Ohio with a spra-coupe field sprayer powered by VW. It is a liquid cooled industrial engine, with a 4 speed manual behind ( in front of) it. As I understand it, this transaxle was only used in the sprayer here in the states, and in a Brazilian built bus of some kind. I "think" it's a 081??? Something. ( I am VW Stupid) I talked to a guy in MI who was helpful and can rebuild it, for $1500. As I've never used this thing yet, I am hoping to repair what's needed and get to work.
Anyways, I serviced the machine this winter, and when I went to back it out of the shop,there was no Reverse. As it turns out, a snap ring failed and let one of the R gears slide on the shaft. I pulled tranny and am due for a clutch, so that's not too bad. What concerns me is the amount of brass filings...I'd like to know where they are coming from. All forward gears operate just fine.... Maybe I should not worry about a full disassembly and fill it with oil and get to it?
I'm a relatively competent mechanic, but this thing is kicking my butt. ( I wrench on farm machinery out of my farm shop on the side, big complex PowerShift transmissions don't scare me at all. I can NOT get the case to separate off the back , nor far enough to see what's holding it. Any help is appreciated, or direct me to someplace that can.
Thank you!
Anyways, I serviced the machine this winter, and when I went to back it out of the shop,there was no Reverse. As it turns out, a snap ring failed and let one of the R gears slide on the shaft. I pulled tranny and am due for a clutch, so that's not too bad. What concerns me is the amount of brass filings...I'd like to know where they are coming from. All forward gears operate just fine.... Maybe I should not worry about a full disassembly and fill it with oil and get to it?
I'm a relatively competent mechanic, but this thing is kicking my butt. ( I wrench on farm machinery out of my farm shop on the side, big complex PowerShift transmissions don't scare me at all. I can NOT get the case to separate off the back , nor far enough to see what's holding it. Any help is appreciated, or direct me to someplace that can.
Thank you!
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- Henryhoehandle
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
How much brass?? The reverse holder is made of brass as is some shift forks and synchros.vDid you clean the magnet? Was there anything (besides what is in the picture) on it? If not, I would re-install the snap ring and put it back together. If should be fine, especially for how little miles it will actually see. (And say you some money too!! 1500.00 is insane for a rebuild if you ask me) If you really want to take it apart, the remove the 4 bolts around the pinion shaft (15mm) , then remove all of the nuts in front (both 11 mm and 13mm ) and the entire assembly will slide out of the front..You will have to push on the pinion head to push it out, some pry on the case to pull it out but that is not the correct way, but will work in a pinch. It is not that hard to do, and if you do pull it apart and take some pics.. we can help you to repair it yourself unless it has major problems, which it most likely does not.
- Piledriver
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
Welcome to the STF!
You stumbled into the right place, some of these guys were fixing/modifying these transmissions when they were new.
That's a funny color for the gear oil. Looks like ATF in the photos.
You stumbled into the right place, some of these guys were fixing/modifying these transmissions when they were new.
That's a funny color for the gear oil. Looks like ATF in the photos.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
The amount of brass laying in the case is the extent of it. There were a couple small chunks, maybe a 1/8 the size of a dime. I have all the bolts out that I can see. I'll go mess with it after supper. We also dairy farm so chores take a lot of time away from wrenching. You are right, it will not see a ton of miles, in terms of acres about 1000 acres a year. 7-10 days of use per year. When we tow it down the road, we unhook the half shafts from the final drives, so nothing turns in the trans.
I did clean the magnet, there was some steel on it but all fine material, and not an alarming amount. I am guessing ATF as the lube of choice before too. I'm not sure what the owners manual says it should have, but the man in MI cautioned me on using "modern GL5 lubes as they are too slippery".... Not sure I buy that. I know some modern limited slip diffs have issues with too much lubricity but this is a long ways from that. I'd feel better knowing what's up inside there, down time in season isn't desirable.
On a related note, is there a 5 speed that would bolt up? Having a faster road speed would be nice for when we do have to drive it. It tops out at about 20 mph now. Like to run 8-10 in the field, at least according to the original owner.
I really appreciate your help, I was a bit nervous to post something like this on a "car" forum, but I was kind of striking out elsewhere.
I did clean the magnet, there was some steel on it but all fine material, and not an alarming amount. I am guessing ATF as the lube of choice before too. I'm not sure what the owners manual says it should have, but the man in MI cautioned me on using "modern GL5 lubes as they are too slippery".... Not sure I buy that. I know some modern limited slip diffs have issues with too much lubricity but this is a long ways from that. I'd feel better knowing what's up inside there, down time in season isn't desirable.
On a related note, is there a 5 speed that would bolt up? Having a faster road speed would be nice for when we do have to drive it. It tops out at about 20 mph now. Like to run 8-10 in the field, at least according to the original owner.
I really appreciate your help, I was a bit nervous to post something like this on a "car" forum, but I was kind of striking out elsewhere.
- Piledriver
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
We have a bit of everything remotely VW related here, aircraft, trikes, Subaru etc conversions--- Your setup is almost mainstream for this group, it isn't even an engine swapped conversion, it was factory, rare, and therefore cool
Some of the early version of your machine IIRC were even air cooled.
The GL5 gear oil warning was at least somewhat valid---25-30 years ago.
Now its an old wives tale.
The issue was some early GL5 oils had a lot of free sulfur in the blend, and it reacts with the brass bits badly.
GL4 rated gear oil was and still is recommended,(and available) but good quality modern GL5s do not have any issues.
ATF is absolutely not the correct lube though.
There are GL4 rated ATFs but I don't think anyone has had the guts to try it, and they are very expensive synthetics that may not work with the ring and pinion well, it would be great (if it worked) for early vw automatics that have a fatal failure mode if the atf and gear oil in the diff mix.. not a concern for you.
If you have it rebuilt at some point you can look into putting a taller 4th and/or ring and pinion, but it is likely barely broken in.
Some of the early version of your machine IIRC were even air cooled.
The GL5 gear oil warning was at least somewhat valid---25-30 years ago.
Now its an old wives tale.
The issue was some early GL5 oils had a lot of free sulfur in the blend, and it reacts with the brass bits badly.
GL4 rated gear oil was and still is recommended,(and available) but good quality modern GL5s do not have any issues.
ATF is absolutely not the correct lube though.
There are GL4 rated ATFs but I don't think anyone has had the guts to try it, and they are very expensive synthetics that may not work with the ring and pinion well, it would be great (if it worked) for early vw automatics that have a fatal failure mode if the atf and gear oil in the diff mix.. not a concern for you.
If you have it rebuilt at some point you can look into putting a taller 4th and/or ring and pinion, but it is likely barely broken in.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Henryhoehandle
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
If you are going to take it apart, and if you use or need reverse gear very much then they are usually never "deep" enough adjusted from the factory, imo. If you take it apart you will see what i mean if you shift the small brass caged reverse you can see how far it is mating with the bigger reverse/1st 2nd slider gear. Even without a jig you can get a good idea on how much deeper to adjust it.
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
That's good to know, I've heard stories from other farmers about having to hold the shifter in Reverse at times, especially with the product tank full. We will be backing into every corner of every field sometimes with a full load on. The tank holds 200 gallons, so we are adding 1600 lbs of weight at a minimum, more if we are spraying fertilizer too as it is heavier than water.
It's really quite amazing this gearbox is up to the task at all, given its size.
It's really quite amazing this gearbox is up to the task at all, given its size.
- Henryhoehandle
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
Yes that's exactly why they have to hold it..after awhile even holding it won't work. It's not a bad idea to hold it even if you have a "good" reverse. If yours is worn, I have some.
- doc
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
TLF, welcome to STF! Very interesting project. Your at the right place and getting an assist from our resident experts. I'll be interested to see the outcome.
doc
doc
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
Exactly how much force is required on the pinion shaft? I've tappped it with a plastic hammer, pushed on the end of it with a 18" pry bar and a block of wood to take up space, etc. without much success. Of course, I am using kid gloves so as not to damage anything.
I haven't played with it too awful much today, have been busy setting up the ring and pinion in the diff of a John Deere 4240 tractor. I am sure I can handle this VW, but so far it's kicked my butt.
I haven't played with it too awful much today, have been busy setting up the ring and pinion in the diff of a John Deere 4240 tractor. I am sure I can handle this VW, but so far it's kicked my butt.
- Henryhoehandle
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
You can gently pry the cases apart about 1/8 then try it again. This older style is usually not tight, but they do have some press to them. Just be careful not to damage the teeth, which i doubt you will with a plastic mallet.
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
Got it apart. I'll shoot you fine folks a few pics when I get to wifi, found a bigger hunk of brass too .
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
Boss is in the shop tonight visiting. Might as well start her young...
she may never pick up a wrench as an adult, but she will sure know how to change her own oil and a tire in an emergency
she may never pick up a wrench as an adult, but she will sure know how to change her own oil and a tire in an emergency
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- Henryhoehandle
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
The brass looks like part of the 1st/2nd shift fork which has broken off...VERY common with the narrow early forks. I was hoping yours had a steel one as most old ones did. The 1st / 2nd slider gear has some wear but should live, especially if you adjust the small reverse deeper. Send some more pics of the small gear.. how do the teeth look? Changing 1st /2nd fork will require a precise adjustment, which will require a jig or some trial and error which can be explained on how to do. You definitely want to replace it with a steel one. Before you remove it, take a hacksaw blade or something to scratch a line on each side of it on the shift rail. This will give you a starting point when you replace it. Now remove the bolt and slide the shift rail forward The other 2 shift rails must be in neutral before 1st/2nd will slide. Dont pull it all the way out..just enough to remove the fork.
Btw..i have a 6 year old boss as well! She isnt into mechanic work either but i try to teach her all i can. I ALSO forgot my manners..welcome to the forum!
Btw..i have a 6 year old boss as well! She isnt into mechanic work either but i try to teach her all i can. I ALSO forgot my manners..welcome to the forum!
- doc
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Re: Spra-coupe Transaxle
First pic is best I've seen on STF in a while! When will she be able to weld?
Do I see broken off roof tops on the synchros in pic 2?
Henry's the expert. Listen to him.
doc
Do I see broken off roof tops on the synchros in pic 2?
Henry's the expert. Listen to him.
doc