The only Werks 412E Variant 2.0 100hp

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:32 pm

Finally got time to scan this for you guys:

The 412E with the 914 2.0 engine:

Car with the Oettinger 1,9 ltr 90 pk tuned engine:

Enjoy!

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:15 pm

Many thanks Wally!!

This is interesting...have to grab my german dictionary....

/Lars S

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:29 pm

Thanks again Wally, we want more of these articles!

Besides the test figures it was interesting to find that the main reasons for not launching the 100hp 412 seems to have been the gearbox weakness and the additional price for the Porsche designed 2,0l parts.

/Lars

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:54 pm

Thanks for the nice words Lars.

The supposed gearbox weakness seems a little strange, as some germans ran a 2,4ltr with it and I run my 110 hp 2.0 daily with a stock and old gearbox as well...

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:16 pm

I have posted about the minor gearbox weaknesses before. The weakness I have found has not to do with the ability to handle power...but more to do with a couple of wear parts that must be renewed with moderate to high milage before irreparable damage happens....and....a lubrication issue on the counter shaft that can be corrected to a large extent by some chamfering and oil relief areas (about 30 minutes work with hand tools)...or can be eliminated altogether with a change of bearing type.....but must be done before irreparable damage happens....and lastly....with a long term wear item that can destroy the spyders in the differential if its not corrected. If caught early it can be fixed by changing to thicker shims between the outer CV flanges and the diff side bearings....without even removing the transmission. Ray

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:50 pm

According to the article it shoud be the gear syncros that did not handle the extra power, causing noise when shifting...
I have never expeienced that or any other problem with the gearbox (but I dont have 100hp in my cars

)

/Lars S

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:09 am

Hmmmm. Its interesting. The 411/412 has a very complex shift linkage with a lot of adjustments....and with a lot of float. Getting the driveline properly aligned to get proper adjustment is a difficulty. For quite some time....I beleived I had weak synchros. At various temperatures and road conditions I found shifting to be irregular.
After I learned proper adjustment....and got a better tail cone bushing....I never had the problem again.
The synchros themselves appear to be identical in design to those in many of the Audi 4000 and 5000 transmissions. Ray

Lahti411 · Post by **Lahti411** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:19 am

I've read all Finnish test drives from period magazines , I've found, and you can find several complaints about the gear changes. Some test drivers used similar cars to compare the quality and they noticed that some cars had bad gear changin while the others had perfect. So i guess there were some quality issues in the transmission assembly line.

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:26 am

Lahti411 wrote:I've read all Finnish test drives from period magazines , I've found, and you can find several complaints about the gear changes. Some test drivers used similar cars to compare the quality and they noticed that some cars had bad gear changin while the others had perfect. So i guess there were some quality issues in the transmission assembly line.

We're getting off-topic here, but the '74 models had vastly improved gear changes into 2nd gear (up to and down to). I have a '74 and can absolutely confirm this

This is a '73 year test however...

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:34 am

Also I guess they, at that time, often compared the gear function with the Beetle and Type3 who both have another, more direct and precise, feeling at shifting.

/Lars S

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:05 pm

I have been inside of all of the type 4 manual versions that I know exist. There was one in the middle years (I have only seen one to date here)...that had an extra synchro ring. I believe that was produced towards the end of the early style slave (1970-71 possibly?)

Being that even in high milage vehicles I rarely found much real synchro wear except between 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 (rarely both)....I don't attribute too much issue to the synchro design.
What is usually the problem (if it is internal) is wear of the interemediate shim newteen gearsets on the mainshaft, or slop in the large ball bearing mounting for the main shaft in the tail cone end...meaning it moves fore and aft against the snap ring leaving slack all of which allow the gear and synchro hub assemblies to float fore and aft.....which slows gear synchronisation and make shifting hard.

There were no notable differences that I could find between 1974 and 1972-73 models internally. I have also found that the 1974's I have worked on shift no better or worse than the 72-73 models. They all shift quite well....once you do the obvious thinsg like taking slack out of the assemblies listed above.
As noted....The differences I did find were either worn shims....or all in shift linkage (about 90% of the time).

Type 4's will always have slightly less precise "feeling" shifting because of the floating ball in socket joint. They cannot use a solid link like type 1 and type 3 because they cannot be rigidly mounted at the tail cone.

No to get off subject....But I just don't see the tranmission being any issue with 100+ HP. Ray

plumcrazee · Post by **plumcrazee** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:27 pm

i have a 90 hp engine in my 21 and for the past 21/2 years its been fun with no problems at all and its been a daily all that time doing shows holidays and parts carrier never had any problems from the extra hp just worn tyres from the odd sidways action round islands

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:36 am

What the Wolfsburg engineers claimed was that shifting up at high rpms caused noise from the syncros, the soultion was not to rev the engine so much...loosing the kick from the next gear
Also from the article: The gearbox in the test car was from a coupe with its higher ratio but the 14" tyres was said to make the overall ratio a bit shorter than for a standard Variant.

/Lars S

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:17 am

I'm betting they were having other issues. When at high rpm, depending on the level of adjustment of the drivetrain alignment, you get torque twist of the whole package. That changes the amount of arc of the throw of the shift rod coming from forward (the cup section) with reference to the ball stud mounted on the tail shift rod of the tranny. That alone can cause noisey shifts with these transmissions. Usually an occasional slight pop as a tooth is caught on a slider.
It would also be nearly impossible to tell if its syncro noise or bearing noise when tehse gearboxes twist. Ray

412s2 · Post by **412s2** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:33 pm

Thanks for posting this Wally it's really interesting; and thanks to Lars S for translating the juicy details!!