How to lower bug?
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fletchman919
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How to lower bug?
I am wanting to lower my bug sometime before winter if feasible. I think it will look real nice lowered with some new wheels and maybe tinted windows. Can I lower it without buying anything, or should I buy parts (which parts)? I have a torch and welding outfit so I can do that if I have to.
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Bugfuel
- Posts: 3011
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:01 am
The rear can be lowered without any new parts. The suspension is based on torsion bars that are splined at both ends. You can pull the torsion bar out and put it back in in a different position. Search for old articles on these forums, I'm sure it has been covered before. One spline on the outer end of the rear torsion bars generally is enough for most people. It doesn't sound like much but it is. The inner splines are spaced differently, so with a combination of inner and outer spline re-indexing, you can fine tune the ride height.
While you have the rear torsion bars out however, I would HIGHLY recommend new bushings, both inner and outer, for the spring plate assemblies that attach to the torsion bar ends.
Finish off with a 4-wheel alignment.
The front can be lowered too without buying any parts, but it would require cutting the center section of the front axle beam off and welding it back on in a different position... on both beams. A lot of guesswork and the beam will be weakened. (It's even illegal in some places due to safety concerns).
An elegant way to lower the front while maintaining ride quality and basically everything else in correct angle etc. would be to buy drop spindles. No need to buy or alter anything else. If you go that route, I would get the disc brake version and upgrade the front brakes to discs, if you haven't already.
You could also weld in adjusters for the front axle beams, which would give you the luxury of adjusting the front ride height any time you want.
While you have the rear torsion bars out however, I would HIGHLY recommend new bushings, both inner and outer, for the spring plate assemblies that attach to the torsion bar ends.
Finish off with a 4-wheel alignment.
The front can be lowered too without buying any parts, but it would require cutting the center section of the front axle beam off and welding it back on in a different position... on both beams. A lot of guesswork and the beam will be weakened. (It's even illegal in some places due to safety concerns).
An elegant way to lower the front while maintaining ride quality and basically everything else in correct angle etc. would be to buy drop spindles. No need to buy or alter anything else. If you go that route, I would get the disc brake version and upgrade the front brakes to discs, if you haven't already.
You could also weld in adjusters for the front axle beams, which would give you the luxury of adjusting the front ride height any time you want.
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm
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david58
- Moderator
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Ol'fogasaurus wrote:Might be time for a repost.
Setting preload
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... ht=preload
VW recommends the following for stock bugs and Ghia’s:
17 degrees 30 minutes for short swing axle
20 degrees + 50’ for 67-68 long axle and IRS
The outer spline has 44 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-3/8"
The inner spline has 40 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-9/16"
Now we see that moving each spline in opposite directions, we can make a change of as small as 3/16" This is where the infinite amount of adjustability comes to light. You can "dial in" almost any ride height you wish (to a limit). Remember though, a change of 2-9/16 is a BIG difference, and the ride quality will suffer if taken to the extremes.
Info found here.
http://www.airheadparts.com/page.asp?recId=76
I thought this info would be good to know even though it is for lowering a stock bug.
Ol'fogasaurus wrote:FYI;
model year vs. application
Size, Description, Applications
21 ¾ long, Short Torsion Bar, 60-68 Type I Swing Axle
24 11/16 long, Intermediate Torsion Bar, 49-59 Type I Swing Axle
24 11/16 long, Intermediate Torsion Bar, 69-72 Type III IRS
24 11/16 long, Intermediate Torsion Bar, 65-67 Type III Swing Axe
26 9/16, Long Torsion Bar, 73-L Type I IRS
Note: Measure tube extension past spring plate intermediate 4”, long 6”
Chart from Bugpack Product catalog.
Lotrat wrote:Here's a 4 part video on how to lower a type 3. Same process to lift a bug. You just need to turn it up 1 spline. In his video, he removes the CV, but you don't have to do that to re-index the rear. Watch the series and you'll get the idea. It'll take about 2 hours the first time. I'm down to 15 minutes per side now...
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMxBolHOJR4
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmh5V1sKlTM
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA5jYrkwewg
Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41V5g9s_Lbw
Last edited by david58 on Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ol'fogasaurus
- Posts: 17881
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Thanks david58, I was going to post that this am.
Bugfuel made a good post, with a lot of good information. I would like to add to what he said.
If I was playing with a swing axle vehicle, I would be hesitant to lower it too far as the wheels then tilt in at the top and the contact foot print on the tires would be not what you would ideally want it to be. You can also accomplish this tilt in on IRS equipped cars by lowering the suspension too far. It is not as obvious as the swing axle cars but it is there. The only way I know of to do it right is to cut and raise the torsion bar housing on the pan which is a lot of work and I don’t think you really want to do this.
As far as lowering the front of the car, besides cutting and raising the frame head, I would think the ideal set up would be a combination of dropped spindles and adjusters. Cutting and turning the beam is too permanent of a fix and if you don’t get it right the first time you have to start over. You would also have to go to shorter travel shock and the compression/rebound would be sorter and easier to bottom out the suspension.
With dropped spindles you get the stock shock travel which is good. By adding adjusters, you can further tune the suspension to the proper ride height you want plus have full or near full compression/rebound travel.
There are two styles of adjusters; the Avis adjuster and the style of adjuster that is attributed to Brian Skipper of EMPI. As an off-road person, I think the later style is better but it is bulky looking. The Avis style if much less obvious but has been known to fail off-road which I am sure you don’t care about. Still, this is more information for you to use to make your decision on how you want to proceed with you lowering job.
If you are going radical in the lowering department, you might want to look into a narrower beam to keep the tires and fender apart.
Also, remember the turtles, thouse little half ball shaped lane dividers. If you hit one, you willhit is pretty hard and could lose control of you car much less the pan, body or engine/transaxle damage it can do.
As additional upgrades, you also might want to look into larger front sway nar and adding a rear sway bar also. With a swing axle car, a camber compensator might be worth asking people here about. Also a Kaffer bar is something to think about too.
I hope this helps.
Bugfuel made a good post, with a lot of good information. I would like to add to what he said.
If I was playing with a swing axle vehicle, I would be hesitant to lower it too far as the wheels then tilt in at the top and the contact foot print on the tires would be not what you would ideally want it to be. You can also accomplish this tilt in on IRS equipped cars by lowering the suspension too far. It is not as obvious as the swing axle cars but it is there. The only way I know of to do it right is to cut and raise the torsion bar housing on the pan which is a lot of work and I don’t think you really want to do this.
As far as lowering the front of the car, besides cutting and raising the frame head, I would think the ideal set up would be a combination of dropped spindles and adjusters. Cutting and turning the beam is too permanent of a fix and if you don’t get it right the first time you have to start over. You would also have to go to shorter travel shock and the compression/rebound would be sorter and easier to bottom out the suspension.
With dropped spindles you get the stock shock travel which is good. By adding adjusters, you can further tune the suspension to the proper ride height you want plus have full or near full compression/rebound travel.
There are two styles of adjusters; the Avis adjuster and the style of adjuster that is attributed to Brian Skipper of EMPI. As an off-road person, I think the later style is better but it is bulky looking. The Avis style if much less obvious but has been known to fail off-road which I am sure you don’t care about. Still, this is more information for you to use to make your decision on how you want to proceed with you lowering job.
If you are going radical in the lowering department, you might want to look into a narrower beam to keep the tires and fender apart.
Also, remember the turtles, thouse little half ball shaped lane dividers. If you hit one, you willhit is pretty hard and could lose control of you car much less the pan, body or engine/transaxle damage it can do.
As additional upgrades, you also might want to look into larger front sway nar and adding a rear sway bar also. With a swing axle car, a camber compensator might be worth asking people here about. Also a Kaffer bar is something to think about too.
I hope this helps.
Lee
My opinion is worth slightly less than what you paid for it.
My opinion is worth slightly less than what you paid for it.
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm
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david58
- Moderator
- Posts: 14101
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:14 pm
VW recommends the following for stock bugs and Ghia’s:
17 degrees 30 minutes for short swing axle
20 degrees + 50’ for 67-68 long axle and IRS
The outer spline has 44 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-3/8"
The inner spline has 40 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-9/16"
Now we see that moving each spline in opposite directions, we can make a change of as small as 3/16" This is where the infinite amount of adjustability comes to light. You can "dial in" almost any ride height you wish (to a limit). Remember though, a change of 2-9/16 is a BIG difference, and the ride quality will suffer if taken to the extremes.
Info found here.
http://www.airheadparts.com/page.asp?recId=76
17 degrees 30 minutes for short swing axle
20 degrees + 50’ for 67-68 long axle and IRS
The outer spline has 44 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-3/8"
The inner spline has 40 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-9/16"
Now we see that moving each spline in opposite directions, we can make a change of as small as 3/16" This is where the infinite amount of adjustability comes to light. You can "dial in" almost any ride height you wish (to a limit). Remember though, a change of 2-9/16 is a BIG difference, and the ride quality will suffer if taken to the extremes.
Info found here.
http://www.airheadparts.com/page.asp?recId=76
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm
\david58 wrote:VW recommends the following for stock bugs and Ghia’s:
17 degrees 30 minutes for short swing axle
20 degrees + 50’ for 67-68 long axle and IRS
The outer spline has 44 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-3/8"
The inner spline has 40 splines. Moving it 1 spline will move the axle approx. 2-9/16"
Now we see that moving each spline in opposite directions, we can make a change of as small as 3/16" This is where the infinite amount of adjustability comes to light. You can "dial in" almost any ride height you wish (to a limit). Remember though, a change of 2-9/16 is a BIG difference, and the ride quality will suffer if taken to the extremes.
Info found here.
http://www.airheadparts.com/page.asp?recId=76
Awesome! Thank you!!
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Sigurd
I'd do drop spindles first. Then see how much you need to bring the rear down or narrow the front. That was what I did and then decided to go +5/-5 on the bars. I was happy for awhile, but now I decided to do a 3" narrowed beam, taller front tires and another half-inch down in the back. Things start going downhill fast!
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm
If I weld an adjuster in, could I lower my bug without drop spindles? I'm not sure how it works yet. Are these the correct adjusters? http://www.vwparts.net/LR401103.html
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Bugfuel
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- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:01 am
I would look for more information and experienced on AVIS adjusters. They don't require cutting the beams, which is not a job for a beginner.
Avis adjusters are welded on top of the existing beam, and only the set screw hole on the original beam gets elongated to allow adjustment range. Stock parts remain inside the beam.
The page you linked to doesn't show pictures or tell you what type adjusters they are.
The "other" type adjusters are a complete adjuster assembly built into a piece of tubing, and you are expected to be able to cut identical lenght piece out of your old beam and weld the new center section in, and position it in a way that gives you the adjustment range you need.
If you weld them on in the wrong position, you may only be able to adjust the ride height HIGHER from stock!
Or you may have a range from Ridiculously Low to Pavement Scraping Low.
A cut beam, no matter how well it was welded back up, will not be as strong as the original. The end result depends entirely on the skill and equipment of the welder. Therefore it is illegal in some places to cut & weld vw front beams.
Avis adjusters are welded on top of the existing beam, and only the set screw hole on the original beam gets elongated to allow adjustment range. Stock parts remain inside the beam.
The page you linked to doesn't show pictures or tell you what type adjusters they are.
The "other" type adjusters are a complete adjuster assembly built into a piece of tubing, and you are expected to be able to cut identical lenght piece out of your old beam and weld the new center section in, and position it in a way that gives you the adjustment range you need.
If you weld them on in the wrong position, you may only be able to adjust the ride height HIGHER from stock!
Or you may have a range from Ridiculously Low to Pavement Scraping Low.A cut beam, no matter how well it was welded back up, will not be as strong as the original. The end result depends entirely on the skill and equipment of the welder. Therefore it is illegal in some places to cut & weld vw front beams.
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm
Okay thanks for explaining! I looked and couldn't find what I was looking for. With the Avis adjuster, will I be able to adjust the ride height higher and lower? Do I need two of them or just one? Do they come with installation instructions? Any idea on how much adjustability there is? On a scale of one to ten, what's the difficulty?
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fletchman919
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:52 pm