British Buggy Build

TimberwolfII · Post by **TimberwolfII** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:34 pm

I've been lurking a while and have finally succomed to a bit of posting. Looking for some critique on the frame I'm building.

A little history: It all started as a bog standard Glass bodied 'dune' buggy about 15 years ago. Each year saw many upgrades, all getting compromised by the VW pan, and the previous development. So three years ago I decided to take the old girl off the road and sort out the compromises.

I bought a load of 2" 3mm wall tube, some of which was CDS (DOM) for the roll hoops. I went 2" cos it's going to be a 'woods' buggy and have the kids in, also I'm a woos in the 'getting my skull stoved in' dept. I also invested in a JD2 manual bender, their notcher, and a 215 turbo mig. I had all the rest for a bit of fab work.

Spec was to be, 002 bus trans (091's are rarer over here if I break the 002 I'll upgrade), 5x5 rear arms (diy), Rover (buick) 3.9l V8, longish travel LP front end. Four seats and longish wheel base.

I've nearly cracked the rear suspension, but had no end of trouble working with the chromoly torsion tube I used, due to it's use of the original VW geometry. I ended up 'spitting out the dummy' and hacking off the inner trailing arm mounts and making it dual pivot.

The frame is tacked - so necessary as I've had so many R&D issues along the way. It's got a bit of fine surface rust, as it had a holiday between house moves and the northwest UK weather wasn't friendly!

Some piccies:

The 5x5 arms as I first made them. jigged from the original VW arms.

The inner pivot, showing the welds I am capable of. I'm looking to improve, any pointers gratefully accepted. I'm happy with the strength, I know there is total penetration because I had to cut them off again to make them dual pivot. What I struggle with is keeping a consistent bead as it goes round the tube. i have to stop, move the part and restart. This causes lumpy bumpy stuff, not pretty.

i had to go from this set up:

To this:

The arms have been hacked through ready to get the hubs accurate for toe and camber - something i just couldn't do with the standard VW chassis mounts.

I now beleive the standard VW geometry isn't a function of the arms but a function of those inner pivot mounts. Opinions??

I've read through STF ORF threads for several months now, checking out the various readers rides, Im looking towards a useable (road and trail) buggy that is aesthetically pleasing. How am I doing for starters?? Any things I should be aware of?

Ol'fogasaurus · Post by **Ol'fogasaurus** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:17 pm

Timberwolftoo, welcome to STF in general and the Off-road forum specifically.

What I see looks very nice, especially the bar going to the torsion bar to the rear hoop. When I first looked at the first picture showing the cage, there was an optical illusion where it looks like the lower part of the rear hoop is supported by a “Y” shaped piece. The (supposed) illusion is in itself, is an interesting concept/idea. I have noticed that “Y” shaped piece is being done on off-road vehicles. The front hoop having the “Y” piece coming down to the center tube then a straight tube perpendicular to the center tube to the floor and transferring the loads that way.

Question, where the “X” bars are on the rear hoop, is it going to interfere with the seat back or the support bar for the seat harness? My buggy’s seats would be touching the “X” itself.

I’ve looked at some of the buggy forums from England. I am interested in how they are doing their buggies. It seems that they refer to what we call a (fiberglass bodied buggy) dune buggy (west coast), tube buggy (center of the country) and beach buggy on the east coast (with some over lap) as ‘beach buggies’. Is this a local term in some areas England or a more generally accepted term? What kind (make) of body do you have?

TimberwolfII · Post by **TimberwolfII** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:34 pm

Hi Ol' fog, thanks. I built the frame on a flat jig, starting with the front and rear torsion tubes positioned square and level. I then started triangulating tubes off them, trying not to have any of the tubes in a bend stress load until they were a distance from these load risers. So hopefully bending loads only start appearing between the A and B roll hoops. The engine will cantilever off the rear roll hoop/torsion housing like most rails.

Better veiws of the torsion housing area:

The appertures between the A and B hoops and the front torsion and the A hoop will get triangulation when I fully weld the frame. The X brace will get a couple of harness bars in shortly, that will take the 6 point harness top straps, wrapping them round a pair of horizontal tubes directly behind the seat appertures. Access to the rear seat area will be a clamber in through the hole between the B and C roll hoops. The passengers are 6 and 9 just now and love climbing stuff!!

The body is a Volksrod mk iv, Very well used, crashed and trashed and will need a LOAD of TLC! I can get a new hood, the old one has a cut out for the radiator it used to have (for a wasserboxer).

All glassfibre body buggies (manx style) are called 'beach buggies' in the UK, stemming from their use in the '60's I suppose. Then there are rails and baja's to complete the vw offroad scene, which is comparatively tiny in the UK, but growing! Beach buggy style over here is mostly the street racer, lowered, shiney expensive paint and wheels with a drag race bred aircooled engine. Now we are starting to see the odd 'hardcore' off roader like Ricks who has posted here. There are one or two 'hardcore' rails, mostly involved with AWDC - 'All wheel drive club' activities, and plenty of street/offroad baja's which are mostly lightly modified. The extended suspensions you all seem to have are a rarety over here.

(EDIT) Another veiw of that Y piece idea:

I did it like this to bring the load off the C hoop down to the tubes that go along under the trans to sweep up under the engine and form the rear bumper cage. Everything needed to be 'narrow' in this area to allow suspension movement and maximise cockpit space.

Ol'fogasaurus · Post by **Ol'fogasaurus** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:27 pm

Having worked with a lot of English engineers over the years, I have noticed that their approaches to doing things were quite often different than ours. I attribute much of this partially to the apprentice program (hands on) they had to take while going through their engineering program. Building jigs are not always (cost effective) done here (unless it is a commercial business) which means things have tendency to be built in place. Both ways work, just different directions to a common end.

You frame (in this case definitely not a pan) is well thought out and fixes several problems at one time. I have learned a lot by seeing (in this detail) your approach to things. Thanks.

TimberwolfII · Post by **TimberwolfII** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:34 pm

Hey, no problem Ol'fog!!, Thank you for the feed back!

I haven't any conventional engineering background, all self taught. What I have had is 10 years in farming and 10 years in forestry. You very soon learn what breaks, how not to break it, and how to fix it if you accidentally do. All back yard intuitive stuff. I surf alot for ideas but the rest is done by eye, what looks right usually is!

I Jigged stuff so it is easier to measure, clamp and keep in the place you want it. Having said that I made a jig for the trailing arms only to find the problems with the geometry and then had to 'jig' it in situ on the chassis and measure it all with spirit levels, string etc. With a spirit level attached, the hubs now cycle up and down without the bubble moving from perfectly perpendicular, that jobs done!! Hurrah!

DeMinimis · Post by **DeMinimis** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:53 pm

Looking good. That stone and mortar wall in the background was probably built before our constitution was even penned.

One thing: V-8 and 002. Hope you like chickens, because that transaxle is likely going to hatch with that combo.

TimberwolfII · Post by **TimberwolfII** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:35 am

Thanks guys.

v8 + 002 , mmmm, yeah maybe ticking time bomb, but I generally don't kill stuff, I'll go stronger as and when (hopefully if) I kill it....

Stone barn was definitely around circa 1800, (house dates from c1500!, name of the place is saxon) we've just repaired it as it was falling down, we used hand made (personally) lime mortar and oak, it's got the original buttermere slate on it, perfect after 200+ years, quarried and riven by hand in a quarry 10 miles away....thats sustainable!

V8's aren't!!

DeMinimis · Post by **DeMinimis** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:29 pm

TimberwolfII wrote:Stone barn was definitely around circa 1800, (house dates from c1500!, name of the place is saxon) we've just repaired it as it was falling down, we used hand made (personally) lime mortar and oak, it's got the original buttermere slate on it, perfect after 200+ years, quarried and riven by hand in a quarry 10 miles away....thats sustainable!

That's why I love Europe. We were in Italy, drinking heavily of course, and I noticed an old marble city well that had a steel cover on it to keep people like me from falling into it. Read the Roman numerals and it was dated pre-Columbus. This hazard was older than anything made by Europeans in this country. Pretty cool for an old history buff like me.

I can almost imagine someone knocking on the door to your old cottage/house and your wife telling you "Dear there is a Mister Death at the door; Something about the reaping." Quick! First person to ID that movie, without using the Net wins and wins big!!

So, I've got to ask (to get back on track), are you building the buggy with RHD? I gotta say, that right hand drive stuff is mighty silly, unless you are a mailman/femailman.

Post by **Leatherneck** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:29 pm

That is one cool looking frame, love that look! Might as well go with a 6 rib now, install me now or install me later, lot easier now. Ya have to keep us posted on the updates. What kind of terrain are we talking?

TimberwolfII · Post by **TimberwolfII** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:33 am

Install now/install later..........I've got the 002 an 091 is hard to get in Cumbria.

You'll all be able to 'tell me so' when it goes pop.

thanks for the positive coments guys, much appreciated.

I'll be posting as much as I can, i try and unwind in the barn each weekend, maybe during the evenings too as it warms up. I'll be getting a motivation boost soon hopefully, one of the STF ORF guys has tracked down the engine adapter I need. Getting the engine in will be a great help - I can't wait to get on with the rear cage design. It will be a version of this:

I need to get the cantilever off the back roll hoop right as the load paths 'jump up' higher in the frame from the rear fire wall back. I like the way this design follows the engine shape, it's nice and neat. Not sure who the manufacturer is tho. would like some more images.

I'd like to get a tube in tension from the top of the hoop down the side of the engine to the back of the cage, like this:

It closes off what is otherwise a very open, untriangulated area. All depends on what is sticking out of the engine. I don't want to have to dissassemble half the ancillaries to pull the engine either. The cage will have to be detatchable for this reason. Currently plotting and scheming on how best to connect the various tube butt ends. Any ideas? flanges are a bit unwieldy and untidy, but easy to engineer.

Terrain, mmmm, anything really. We don't have any dunes that aren't protected but we do have seaside sand. We can use a large network of 'greenlanes' which are the remnants of the old road system that never got tarmaced so are just muddy lanes or 'lonnings' as we call them round here. Then there are the organised offroad events in woods, fields and quarries. I'd like to go into Europe with it some time so that brings in proper mountains with rocky trails and an ultimate dream would be to go to Iceland, volcanic ash and glaciers to play on!!

Ol'fogasaurus · Post by **Ol'fogasaurus** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:43 am

I have a similar, but worse problem with supporting the rear of my engine cage which the engine (front) motor mouns will attaach to. I will also come up with some kind oif Kaffer bar for support the engine/transaxle mount. They both can't be supported by the same place on the rear hoop. That and I am trying not to "hole" the body any more than I can help. I am watching to see what you come up with.

DeMinimis · Post by **DeMinimis** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:55 am

I'm still on the house from the 1500's. Since none of you got the movie quote, here's the clip. Anyway, this is how I picture you house:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoBTsMJ4jNk

Ol'fogasaurus · Post by **Ol'fogasaurus** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:14 am

Now you know why I don't eat fish. So sad to see that he cars died too. I wonder where car heaven it... LeMans?

TimberwolfII · Post by **TimberwolfII** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:44 am

Ha HA HA!!

I think that was filmed in Yorkshire - my home county, thats like the lime stone pavement over near Malham.

This is our gaff. The doors are the original 1800 ones, pre postal service so no letter flaps, postie just slides the mail under the gap! Widows are also 1800, one or two with scratched in graffiti from 'anne and thomas 1804' !!

We don't get any 'trick or treaters'. Wonder why??

The view from the fell above the house not bad eh??

BTW it's for sale!! PM me if your SERIOUS.

Yes it is RHD, all the civilised nations drive on the correct side of the road you know (right! HS!).

I did read why we drive that side one time, something to do with horses and carts IIRC.

DeMinimis · Post by **DeMinimis** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:54 am

Wow! I vote Timberwolf's house the best of all the STF members.

Also, the MP clip is site-related because of the Porsche 912, and it was traveling off-road (very off-road).