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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:31 pm 
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BTR's are made in china also...


Yeah, and they're cast, too. So are those Robby Gordon wheels for that matter. I'd be hesitant to put cast wheels on a performance car; they're every bit as heavy as steel and shatter instead of bend. I'm a tightwad, so I'll take the steel ones and look like a dork and use the money I saved to invest in important things in life. You know...things like fast women and booze.

Let me hijack my own thread to illustrate the relationship between cost and value.

Forged parts, pound for pound, are considerably stronger than cast ones. As a result, forged parts are generally lighter than cast ones since they require less material to achieve the same strength as cast ones do.

As far as I know, the only forged wheel for VW apps is the Pro-Am (Kartek).

Image

Here's why it's relevant to the value idea. Knowing how intensely technical and control-oriented Roy Dehban is, I'd put good money on it that he has those wheels forged here in the US.

Anything made in the US instead of China and certainly anything forged instead of cast will certainly cost more, but you have the potential of greater quality (admittedly we make our fair share of crap as well as good stuff, but only because people love cheap prices).

VW-type Centerlines are quality wheels (at least they used to be--i haven't had a set in 15 years). When you buy them, you support a company who makes wheels along the I-5 corridor. When you buy ERCO wheels, you're paying Eric Ballard (Riverside) and Custom Metal Spinning (Paramount). I'd like to know if Douglas makes its wheels in Vista.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:02 pm 
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i have steel wheels up front and aluminum wheels for the sand paddles and would like to have something else for the front. recently i saw a certain un-named individual bend an alum. front wheel on his buggy. i know my car is heavier than a rail so the aluminum ones are out of the question.... i have drooled at the BTR's every since they came out on the market. but i have wondered about the weight of them compared to what i have, i mean they aren't broken so why fix 'em.

i guess i ought to look for a good set of centerlines. shirley they are stronger than the one piece aluminum douglas or what ever brand.


and when you have a minute, could you explain the difference between cast and forged? both are molten metal?

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:38 pm 
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cast means the molten aluminum is poured into a mold. Forged means the molten aluminum is pushed into a mold. Basically, forgings are alot denser than castings, forgings don't usually get voids or air pockets (since they are squeezed under pressure into the mold), and the grain structure (like wood) is shaped like the part instead of being all over the place like molded.

Forgings are usually even stronger than billet because as I said, the grain pattern matches the shape of the part (and can be controlled during the design phase). Billet parts are made from forgings, but they have a straight grain instead of a grain that complements the shape. For example, think of connecting rods. If you made a connecting rod out of a 2x4, the "big end" would break off with very little force because of the grain in the wood being weak in that orientation. That is a billet rod. The grain runs straight up and down, even when the rod gets round at the big end. In a forging, the grain follows the shape of the rod so you'll play hell busting the round part off.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:51 am 
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…recently i saw a certain un-named individual bend an alum. front wheel on his buggy. i know my car is heavier than a rail so the aluminum ones are out of the question...


Well don’t rule out aluminum wheels altogether. If anything, rule out THOSE aluminum wheels. At the same time, don’t condemn them, either. They’re probably perfectly fine, but for another vehicle.

There’s the function of application. I would have no qualms running old Mitchell, new Douglas, or ERCO wheels on a very lightweight buggy or even a hot street car, but I’d never bolt ’em to a desert car or a heavy sand buggy. Those wheels are very light for very low unsprung mass, but they aren’t so robust as a result.

OTOH, I wouldn’t think twice about something like Centerlines or a properly designed forged wheel on a heavy car. Can you bend ’em? Sure, but you can bend a steel wheel, too (three of ’em were bent on my ol’ lady’s Baja when we got it).

The materials in CL and forged wheels are generally thicker than the above mentioned wheels. They also have more shape. Each of those upsets in a design increases the wheel’s cross section and, by extension, its strength.

Think of a flat sheet of steel and one with beads rolled in it. The latter is considerably stronger. Now upset the sheet so it’s the shape of a Beetle. Then it’s incredibly strong. Increased cross section and engineered shape are premises behind a unit-construction vehicle.

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i have drooled at the BTR's every since they came out on the market. but i have wondered about the weight of them compared to what i have, i mean they aren't broken so why fix 'em.


Well if they make you drool, that might be justification to own them (the Chinese thing withstanding). The strength factor is definitely something to take into consideration. If those cast aluminum wheels and your steel wheels are the same weight, theoretically the aluminum ones will be four times stronger than the steel ones. Note that I said theoretically. Here’s why.

In reality, you have to take the construction and shape into consideration when factoring in total strength. The typical casting has about a six-percent yield, which means it will move (bend) roughly six percent before it fails. Castings typically crack once they hit their yield.

Forgings (including hot- and cold-rolled steel that wheels are made of) have about a 20-percent yield. At that point forgings typically bend. For an example of how we use yield in our cars, consider bending tubing for a chassis. If we bend the tubing less than 20 percent, it’ll bounce right back to straight (theoretically, but there are other factors involved). Once we go 21 percent, we violate the yield and the material takes on a new shape. In a tube’s case, it bends. That’s why a steel wheel typically bends a bit if you hit something hard. If you tried to bend a casting in the same way, it would at the very least bend in a bad way or break once it hit its yield.

Now take the shape into consideration. If a wheel made of a superior material is basically shapeless, a highly formed wheel made of a lesser material may be stronger. It’s all give and take.

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…a good set of centerlines…stronger than the one piece aluminum douglas or what ever brand…


I don’t mean to turn this into an ad for Centerline, and quite frankly I don’t like Ray Lipper (he’s a mean bastard) but the wheels he makes for VWs are pretty damn strong. Thousands of off-road racers can’t be all wrong. Plus you can have those wheels straightened over and over again since they’re spun (a rudimentary offshoot of cold forging). Likewise you can straighten a bent Douglas, but we've already determined that they might be too weak for heavy off-road use.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:23 am 
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I wanted to also address what Fl-Buggy said. He hit the nail right on the head. I couldn’t have said it better…I could’ve only said it with more words.

For a visual of what he's talking about, here's a photo of a cast connecting rod (left) and a forged connecting rod after its first forging strike (the complex shape dictates multiple strikes, each strike with its own set of dies).

Image

Notice that the forged rod is a two-piece arrangement. The cap section has an almost perfectly intact grain, making it very resistant to tension. Also notice that the grain that makes up the big end of the rod is fairly intact even when bored for the piston pin. While the grain is relatively straight through the small end of the rod, the force of the forging rounds it off enough to make an appreciable difference. Also notice that the small end has an oval boss. That's so the company can machine the rod to any number of lengths. In this case that's a Chevy rod, and this set of forging dies will create a shape that will bear a rod from 5.7 inches to 6.2 long depending on the finish machining.

About the only thing I could see worth clarifying (and it's a minor one) is that materials aren’t heated to molten temperatures when forged. At the most they’re heated to a plasticity range before forming (hot forging). Sometimes the materials are left at room temperature (cold forging)

There are also a few other things about extrusions (billets) worth noting, and this might be pretty entertaining to know if you’re a technical geek. While billets do have a straight grain, it typically isn’t highly formed. It’s relatively loose from the way it’s always been described to me.

Also, bear in mind that the direction of the grain in a true extrusion (billet) is almost never in the direction that it can achieve the most strength. The photo below is of a piece of 316C stainless for surgical/culinary use. The grain goes in the direction in which the bar was forged (axial). Wanna really blow your mind? That bar is about 24 inches in diameter. Dude...stainless. Think it's expensive?

Image

Also, forged parts start as either castings or extrusions (billets). There’s a forge in Wilmington that gets of cast-iron and steel ingots, heats them to dull red, and then hammers them with a HUGE hammer (about 30-feet tall) into shapes that get turned into tools and whatnot. It’s the craziest (and scariest) thing you’ve ever seen. The earth shakes. You feel insignificant in the presence of this hammer.

Here's what the hammer looks like:
Image

Here's what the ingots and extrusions look like. Note the numbers: 4130 and 4140 (chromemoly), 440A (the stainless capable of achieving the greatest hardness), 15-5 stainless for aerospace (high corrosion resistance), 316-L stainless (common for manufacturing and oil refining)

Image

Bear in mind that they're forging basic shapes and not complex parts, so they don't use dies in the conventional sense. Here's what the dies look like that a company called Super Bell uses to forge its aluminum beam axles for hot rods:

Image

Now here’s one to REALLY confuse you. The centers for commercially produced billet wheels (street car market) start as forgings…which started as either castings or extrusions. Here's one at the aluminum foundry in Santa Ana that forges those axles above. I think these may have been for Budnik:

Image

It's actually more economical to forge the disc into a basic shape than it is to whittle away the material that isn't going to be part of the wheel. After all, they still have to pay for the metal whether it goes into the wheel or onto the floor as chips.

So when you buy a billet wheel you’re really buying a wheel with a cast or extruded center that’s been forged into a shape, whittled into a trendy design, and pressed into a rotary-forged rim (similar to a Centerline, but usually a lot beefier). It's funny that people would be impressed by the term billet when in fact they should be more impressed by a forging, but that's marketing for you. The magazines say "billet is COOL," so therefore it must be. Right?

I can't say what the name of the aluminum forge is, because it has contracts with companies who build cars that have forged wheels like these:

Image

In case you're wondering, those are Corvette wheels, and when that photo was taken the Corvette that would wear them wasn't yet in production. For the record, those wheels are incredibly strong partially due to their shape. To achieve a shape like that requires multiple strikes, each strike with its own set of dies, each set of dies costing tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Knowing that C5 and C6 Vette wheels are true forgings, you should be able to infer that changing them for a custom wheel is a matter of pure vanity at the price of true value and function. But hey, custom wheels are cool, right? The magazines say so.

I'd go so far as to say that any properly done forging is definitely stronger than a pure "billet" part whittled into complex shapes. So why do billet parts exist when forgings are stronger? Usually because a limited production run cannot justify the exceptionally high cost to fabricate forging dies. Remember, complex forgings require more than one set of dies and the dies are EXPENSIVE. Things like billet cranks exist because they’re almost as strong as a forging but not near as expensive to produce in small numbers.

Take a look at these cranks. One is forged; the other, billet.

Image

Referring to the grain structure that fl_buggy referenced in connecting rods, use your eyeball microscope to follow the grain through the billet crank. It's interrupted all over the place. While the grain isn't totally intact throughout the forged crank, it is a lot less interrupted than it is in the billet.

Here's one last one I'll bore you with. It's the evolution of a billet crank for a Chevrolet V-8. That's a bar of 4340 at the left; at the right is an almost-finished crank. Billet cranks aren't expensive necessarily because they're better; they're expensive because a HUGE amount of very expensive metal ends up as chips on the floor. Dollar for dollar, a forged crank is far stronger. You'd really rather have one of those unless you need a crank with really strange dimensions--common in limited-class racing.

Image

Quote:
the sky is falling!! the off topic thread just got turned on topic!!


Weird, ain’t it? Turns out mom was wrong; two wrongs DO make a right. Maybe it's like multiplying two negative numbers to get a positive. Maybe from now on we ought to start threads with random subjects if we want to get good information flowing!


Last edited by hotrodsurplus on Wed May 07, 2008 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:25 am 
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Wow. I never though I would learn this much on a VW site :lol:

Great info. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:41 pm 
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I never though I would learn this much on a VW site


Thanks, dood. I should probably break this out into a separate post. I'm not an authority by any means, but I've got some teasers to get people interested in various universal technical subjects. It's stuff that everybody who plays with cars should know.

If anyone thinks I should make this into a separate post, tell me. I for one don't think it does much good buried in an off-topic tidbit.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:01 pm 
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Well kewl! Thanks for breaking this out (leather?).

We should probably look at casting properties a bit more, as it does have its time and place. I don't have much time right now (and I'm running low on coffee), but I can sort of sum it up by working with fl_buggy's appropriate wood analogy.

As he said, metals, like wood, have a grain structure. Cast structures are a lot like particle board. There is no real identifiable grain, so to speak. If you could call it a grain at all, it's very random. Now think of the way a particle board moves. It will flex just a bit before yielding--or in that case cracking.

Not everything has to be as strong as a tank, but some things need to be very complicated. For example, take a look at this Porsche 356 sump.

Image

With its open cavity, there is no way that this could be forged. Nor would it have to be; it's not a structural member. Even if it was, a casting can be incredibly strong if necessary (especially when relatively static, as is the case with an engine block, for example).

You can get far more intricate detail with a casting than you can get with a forging. If you look at the parting lines of a casting and a forging, you'll notice that the casting's parting line is very sharp and narrow. Take these crankshaft parting lines for example.

Look how fat it is in this forging:
Image

Now see how thin it is in this casting:
Image

You can get incredible detail like text in a casting (side of VW case sump, for example).

Now here's something to illustrate the density that fl_buggy was talking about. In the foreground is a cast crank. Note how dark and loose it is. Castings often chip away much like brass does when you machine it. The resulting surface in this example is pretty rough, but castings can have very high-quality surfaces (cheap cast crankshaft pulleys or pistons, for example)

Notice how fine the finish is on the forged crank in the background.
Image

With that density comes greater strength and improved yield properties. Since forged materials behave better under stress, you can make parts made out of them lighter than equivalent cast parts. That's why forged wheels and pistons make so much sense. Decreases in unsprung mass or reciprocating mass radically improve performance. It will also make a part yield in better ways if damaged (bend instead of break).

Again, not everything HAS to be forged. A forged alternator stand or oil pump cover makes little sense, if it's even possible at all.

Now bear in mind that there are almost infinite ways to cast things, and each has its own application based on production volume, strength, detail, and so on. Here are a few of the things we see often.

We can break down the traditional casting processes in the automotive world into two very rough (and incomplete) forms: sand cast and die cast.

To make sand castings, you form somewhat adhesive sand around a form or plug. The plug looks just like the part you want to cast, but it's slightly larger than necessary to account for shrinkage. Sand-cast parts are usually not very detailed. Look at just about any engine block for a good example. Moon valve covers are all sand cast if i remember right. Sand casting is very cheap for limited-production runs but very time and labor intensive.

Die castings are considerably more intensive. They usually require dedicated metal dies which are quite expensive (although not as expensive as forging dies). They will produce far more intricate detail. Old Hot Wheels cars are die-cast, as are alternator stands, VW engine cases, and such. Whenever you see sharp detail, it's usually die cast. Die castings are very fast and cheap to produce in very large quantities, but you have to have the volume to justify the die expense. Most cheap VW pulleys are die cast. As with sand casting, the dies are oversized to account for shrinkage.

There's also a third type called investment casting, and it bridges the gap between sand and die casting in both cost and labor. It basically starts with a wax plug in the shape of the part, only bigger to account for shrinkage. That wax plug is dipped in a setting agent similar to plaster, and once the plaster sets the molten metal is poured into funnels that lead into the cavity inside the plaster. The hot metal melts and displaces the wax, and when it cools you have an incredibly detailed part. Incidentally, this is how almost all bronze sculptures have been made for hundreds--if not thousands--of years. That variety is called Lost Wax method. Jewelry is cast in the same way.


Now here's where the marketing gets weird. You'll sometimes see things referred to as pressure cast. What this means is that the metal is forced, under pressure, into the dies. By compressing the grain structure in this way, the resulting part gains considerable strength and finish properties.

Unless there's something out there that I don't know about, you can't pressure-cast parts in sand. You have to use a dedicated set of dies or the Investment/Lost Wax method.

The cost goes up because of the technology, but a pressure-cast part is generally stronger than a gravity-cast part. A pressure-cast part will never have the yield properties of a forging, but they're leagues ahead of sand castings.

Again, this is all very stripped-down stuff. You can write books about this stuff (which there are many).

In closing for now, you can sand cast your own parts at home. There's a pretty big movement of people doing it, and they're making everything including pistons and whole lathes out of castings they're making at home. The technology is very crude, with furnaces made from metal pails lined with cement and fueled with charcoal and hair driers; however, the parts these people are making are unbelievable.

If you want to see what these people are doing, visit this site:

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/links.html

In that page there are lots of links to ordinary people doing extraordinary things by casting at home. It's pretty inspirational.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:04 pm 
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the fuchs wheels that the street scene are hot for were forged with a special process. Can't remember what it was now. Same with mahle gasburners I think too, but I might be wrong there.

BTW, steel rims are looking better by the minute to me. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:28 pm 
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fuchs wheels...forged with a special process


They are indeed forged, but I think it's a conventional method--at least one that's conventional today. Bear in mind that auto manufacturers hire marketing agencies to peddle their wares. Miller Brewing, for example, made a big stink about the fact that it cold-filtered its beer when in fact cold filtering is pretty common. In this case whatever Porsche said worked decades later--you remembered that the wheels were something special.

For the record, true Fuchs alloys are incredibly strong--probably some of the strongest aluminum wheels around. If you look back in old sports-car magazines, you'll see Porsche 9-series cars running the Paris-Dakar rally on plain ol' Fuchs wheels. Those cars, for the record, are HEAVY when prepped for rally racing. That is a respectable wheel. Very respectable. I'd run 'em in a heartbeat (but on a street car; i cringe at the thought of folding one).

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Same with mahle gasburners I think too, but I might be wrong there.


From my knowledge of the gasburners, they're cast. That's not necessarily bad as those wheels are lighter than the Fuchs wheels and likely about as strong since magnesium is so incredibly strong for its weight.

There are forged mag parts (including wheels) out there, but they are exceedingly expensive. A pair of forged motorbike wheels can run about $4,500/set. Campagnolo was pretty famous for its forged mag wheels in the '70s.

Quote:
BTW, steel rims are looking better by the minute to me


Though they're not as sexy, there's lots of good to be said about steel wheels. To get a substantial weight reduction without compromising strength, you really have to spend a lot of money on an aluminum wheel. Don't get me wrong; the cast aluminum wheels that are as heavy as a steel wheel may be stronger, but the real advantage in most of them is pure vanity.

Of course you'll never see that in print as magazines are editorial driven. You don't want to piss off a wheel manufacturer if you want it to advertise with you.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:35 pm 
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So how does this stuff weld? :?


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:48 pm 
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So how does this stuff weld?


Well, extrusions that we're used to are exceptionally easy to weld. Every piece of dimensional steel (tubing, flat stock, angle, and so on) is really just an extruded material.

Same goes for the types of raw aluminum (billet) and steel stock. Bar stock in the sizes we buy are extrusions. They're easy pieces to weld. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but that's usually the case.

In all the common steel varieties such as 1010 (low-carbon steel like seamed tubing) 1020 (higher-carbon steels like DOM [Drawn Over Mandrel or Seamless], and 4130N (Chrome Moly Normal hardness) all weld beautifully with gas or electric heat. I'm not so familiar with aluminums, but the sheet and tube stock common to auto fabrication is similarly easy to weld (as long as you know how to weld aluminum).

Castings, on the other hand, can be a real bear. Shrinkage-induced cracking is a real problem, especially on cast steels and irons. You'll typically hear people talk about pre- and post-heat procedures and special alloying (high nickel content) filler materials for ferrous metals. The pre- and post-heating ensures that the part expands and contracts uniformly.

Cast aluminum materials can also be similarly tricky. There are all sorts of problems with inclusions in the materials (elements like cigarette butts and steel chips that get swept up off the floor and dumped into aluminum to be smelted).

The parts about cast materials are little more than hearsay in my case, as I don't really have any worthwhile first-hand experience with them. That's something to take up with some who knows what they hell they're talking about :D

For the most part, though, most billet stuff made from real extrusions (not that cast stuff that gets pawned off as Billet Style) is easy to weld. The same goes for dimensional steels. The cast stuff, well...that's another story.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:00 pm 
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hey hotrodsurplus, how do you know all this stuff? are you in the industry or just one of those guys that knows everything? (not meant in a bad way)


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:09 pm 
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i think he has one of those big red "easy" buttons on his desk :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:22 am 
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hey hotrodsurplus, how do you know all this stuff? are you in the industry or just one of those guys that knows everything? (not meant in a bad way)


I don't take it a bad way at all. In fact I'm pretty honored. Thanks!

Let's just say that I have a knack of sweet talking my way into places I shouldn't be and meeting people I shouldn't otherwise meet. Professionally I'm writer/photographer and I have a fairly extensive background in technical writing and automotive history.

That accounts for some of the specific knowledge, but the breadth of what I know is the flip-side to something like ADHD. I was terrible in school but since I grew up in a car family I soaked up everything car related. So I'm just driven to understand a little bit about nearly everything. It's in my blood, so to speak.

That said, I don't profess to know it all (nor do I want to). I know just enough to be a danger to myself and others but there are some gaps in my knowledge (a few substantial ones, too). It's for that reason I'd like to emphasize that nobody take anything I say as gospel. Definitely verify the things I propose (hell, verify everything you hear, read, or see for that matter). I don't want to mislead anybody.

They have one of those big red Easy buttons at the copy shop by my house. I may steal it. :twisted:


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