I have just purchased a rebuilt tranny from Rancho with 1967 axles already installed.
I placed the tranny in the car and then took off their bearing retainer, thin strip of metal, placed my refurbished type 3 backingplates and all the brake parts. I then installed the flat washer, Big and little 'O' rings, spacer and bearing retainer. I tightend to 43 pounds and all looked well. I then placed my NEW type 3 wide five drum on the splines and pushed it on. It stopped at the bearing retainer/spacer. It does NOT cover the shoes completely as it is about 3/8" from going on all the way, it is about 1/16" away from the backingplate.
The bearing retainer # is 311-501-311. This came off of my old tranny. I never checked if the old tranny was a 68 or a 67 aa I just assumed that it was a 67
Maybe the guy sold me the wrong drums or something
Any help will be greatly appreciated. Yes I know I'll have to machine the snout off the drum but I am not doing any machining until I get this thing right.
Thanks, Roger
Type 3 brakes ofor my 67 VW BUG !
- rogerl
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type 3 brakes on a bug !
Standard looking wide five one piece drum without studs.
Roger
Roger
- Marc
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The depth of the recess in the end of the axle tube where the wheel bearing sits is shallower on the `67 Bug axle tube than on the `68; there's a corresponding difference in the depth of the recess in the bearing retainers (the `67 part is deeper than the `68).
If you use a "shallow" retainer" on a "shallow" axle tube, the brake backing plate won't be pinched between them as it should be and will knock about on the bolts.
If you use a "deep" retainer on a "deep" axle tube, the backing plate will be captive but the bearing (and therefore the axle) will have excess endplay.
If you aren't experiencing either of those symptoms, you probably have the correct retainer for the axle tube...which would imply that the problem you are having is due to a spacer being too thick, or possibly being installed backwards.
If you use a "shallow" retainer" on a "shallow" axle tube, the brake backing plate won't be pinched between them as it should be and will knock about on the bolts.
If you use a "deep" retainer on a "deep" axle tube, the backing plate will be captive but the bearing (and therefore the axle) will have excess endplay.
If you aren't experiencing either of those symptoms, you probably have the correct retainer for the axle tube...which would imply that the problem you are having is due to a spacer being too thick, or possibly being installed backwards.
Last edited by Marc on Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Marc
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Which parts?
I honestly don't remember what early Type IIIs used for bearing retainers (whether they're like the `67 Bug or the `68 Bug).
The number cast into the retainer isn't something I'd rely upon for identification regardless, it's not always the actual part number and even when it is it doesn't conclusively identify what type vehicle the part came from - only the type it was first designed for.
I honestly don't remember what early Type IIIs used for bearing retainers (whether they're like the `67 Bug or the `68 Bug).
The number cast into the retainer isn't something I'd rely upon for identification regardless, it's not always the actual part number and even when it is it doesn't conclusively identify what type vehicle the part came from - only the type it was first designed for.
- rogerl
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- Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:09 am
type 3 brakes for a bug !
Well here are a few more things I learned today/yesterday.
1- when buying a new tranny with axles installed the bearing's may be seated in the axle tube end castings but IS NOT seated on the axle untill you either put the drum on and impact it home using the nut or you use some sort of spacer, drive the nut home then remove it. This seats the bearing on the axle and sets it into the end casting as you would find on a car that has already been driving in the street. This has solved most of the "not going on all the way" situation.
2- there were three types of 'bearing retainers; A-early to 1962 or so which has the seal pounded in from the outside without the thin metal washer, B- 1963 to 1967, seal goes in fron the inside and has that thin washer go in b4 the seal. I don't know that parts number but I was told that it was 311-501-311-A. C- 1968 ONLY and Type3 swingaxles same as 1967 except a bit deeper and that part number is 311-501-311.
I have read the article from VW Trends or Hot VW's from a couple of years ago and I feel there are a couple of discrepancies relating to those bearing retainers. I have also read the "How To" article from VW Trends on how to place type3 brakes on your VW Bug. Here is the website. It takes a minute to load so be patient. Copy and paste to address.
http://www.gibbo.net/bug/tech/tech_arti ... 0Drums.pdf
3- I called Sam at Rancho Transmissions and he stated that if you have at least 1/2 of the bearing showing than use the deep bearing retainer and if less than 1/2 use the shallower retainer but NOT the early one.
I machined 5/8" off of my new widefive drums today for use with the short splined axles. For the 68 axles you do not need to machine so much off only about 3/8". You really don't need the type 3 rear brakes on a 68 and up as they already have bigger brakes than the 67 and down. Thats why 1968 had those long spline long axles.
What's left? To try and find that 63 to 67 Bearing retainer to be sure that what I have will work fine and the brearing won't move around inside the endcasting and chew something up or cause a Fulcrom plate to disslodge and really cause all Hell to break loose.
Thanks for all your help, Roger
1- when buying a new tranny with axles installed the bearing's may be seated in the axle tube end castings but IS NOT seated on the axle untill you either put the drum on and impact it home using the nut or you use some sort of spacer, drive the nut home then remove it. This seats the bearing on the axle and sets it into the end casting as you would find on a car that has already been driving in the street. This has solved most of the "not going on all the way" situation.
2- there were three types of 'bearing retainers; A-early to 1962 or so which has the seal pounded in from the outside without the thin metal washer, B- 1963 to 1967, seal goes in fron the inside and has that thin washer go in b4 the seal. I don't know that parts number but I was told that it was 311-501-311-A. C- 1968 ONLY and Type3 swingaxles same as 1967 except a bit deeper and that part number is 311-501-311.
I have read the article from VW Trends or Hot VW's from a couple of years ago and I feel there are a couple of discrepancies relating to those bearing retainers. I have also read the "How To" article from VW Trends on how to place type3 brakes on your VW Bug. Here is the website. It takes a minute to load so be patient. Copy and paste to address.
http://www.gibbo.net/bug/tech/tech_arti ... 0Drums.pdf
3- I called Sam at Rancho Transmissions and he stated that if you have at least 1/2 of the bearing showing than use the deep bearing retainer and if less than 1/2 use the shallower retainer but NOT the early one.
I machined 5/8" off of my new widefive drums today for use with the short splined axles. For the 68 axles you do not need to machine so much off only about 3/8". You really don't need the type 3 rear brakes on a 68 and up as they already have bigger brakes than the 67 and down. Thats why 1968 had those long spline long axles.
What's left? To try and find that 63 to 67 Bearing retainer to be sure that what I have will work fine and the brearing won't move around inside the endcasting and chew something up or cause a Fulcrom plate to disslodge and really cause all Hell to break loose.
Thanks for all your help, Roger
- Marc
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You shouldn't need to machine anything from a Type III drum to fit it on a `68 Beetle axle. The axle spline length is identical.
Type III rear brakes are an excellent upgrade on `68-up Beetles that have been fitted with front disks, but they do add unsprung weight and a slight increase in track width that may present a fender clearance problem with some rims/tires. You can achieve a similar effect (restored F-R balance) by using `65-up Beetle front wheel cylinders on the `68-up rears. For strenuous use semi-metallic linings (at least at the forward position) are also worthwhile.
Type III rear brakes are an excellent upgrade on `68-up Beetles that have been fitted with front disks, but they do add unsprung weight and a slight increase in track width that may present a fender clearance problem with some rims/tires. You can achieve a similar effect (restored F-R balance) by using `65-up Beetle front wheel cylinders on the `68-up rears. For strenuous use semi-metallic linings (at least at the forward position) are also worthwhile.