I've been wondering couple of things while rebuilding the suspension of my -72 411.
First, how much should the Golf/Rabbit strut tube come out from the original 411 tube? I did a search from this forum but couldn't find any measures. I'm not looking for radical lowering but am willing to make the car more stable. Is there some good general length for the inner tube extrusion (from lip to lip)? By the way, if I wanted to maintain the original ride height, should I just locate the Golf tube higher into the type 4 strut tube or are there some other issues I should be aware of?
second, (I asked this earlier though), I really have to replace the strut bearing, but I'm still wondering if the Super Beetle's asymmethrical bearing would fit into the 411's body cavity. And can I use the foremost bolt hole in the 411's body to locate the new, asymmethrical bearing. Does any of you guys have these -74 bearings somewhere handy so that you could give me the measurements of its extremeties and bolt locations? I would really appreciate this!
Rebuilding the front suspension
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wildthings
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:42 am
I don't think that you can reuse any of the original holes for the strut bearing. You must keep the strut bearing centered in the tower. There is not much in the way of spare room if you get it off more than a little. I am pretty sure that using an existing hole would cause the top spring plate to hit the sides of the tower.
When I did mine I dissassembled an old assymetric bearing and used the plate as a template for drilling the bolt holes, and cutting out the center. The large center hole I left small enough so that there was material left for me to bend up to form a rim. My finished product almost looks factory.
Your ride height is primarily determined by your springs and their mounting, not the strut. Of course if your strut was just plain way too short it would lower things by killing the travel. Using the Super Beetle strut bearing on an earlier car may raise youe car slightly in front. I think mine ended up a 1/2-3/4 of an inch higher. If I ever get into it again I mean to take steps to lower the car a little. I have a set of 74 412 front spring (which were originally used with assymetrical bearings) that may do it, and if not a little bit of spring shortening surely will.
When I did mine I dissassembled an old assymetric bearing and used the plate as a template for drilling the bolt holes, and cutting out the center. The large center hole I left small enough so that there was material left for me to bend up to form a rim. My finished product almost looks factory.
Your ride height is primarily determined by your springs and their mounting, not the strut. Of course if your strut was just plain way too short it would lower things by killing the travel. Using the Super Beetle strut bearing on an earlier car may raise youe car slightly in front. I think mine ended up a 1/2-3/4 of an inch higher. If I ever get into it again I mean to take steps to lower the car a little. I have a set of 74 412 front spring (which were originally used with assymetrical bearings) that may do it, and if not a little bit of spring shortening surely will.
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Lahti411
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:23 pm
I tried to gather all the information concernig the front suspencion rebuild but there were some differences in the posts and in the end I wasn't sure what exactly should I do.
I would like to use the Audi strut cartridges, but I understood that I have to use, for example, a Rabbit/Golf strut tube to reposition the Audi cartridge into a type 4's. In some other posts there were talk about lowering the lower spring support bowl, to improve the cars stance, but I got the impression that nobody were exactly sure how much this should be lowered and would it get too close to the wheel. I saw some pictures of Ray's car, but didn't find info what set-up did Ray use. Did he lower the spring support or was the car lowered only by raplacing the original cartridges with the Audi-Rabbit set-up.
As I mentiond earlier, I'm not into lowering this car, but if it improves the handling significantly and makes this car safer to drive, I might try it -even if it changes the original looks.
I would like to use the Audi strut cartridges, but I understood that I have to use, for example, a Rabbit/Golf strut tube to reposition the Audi cartridge into a type 4's. In some other posts there were talk about lowering the lower spring support bowl, to improve the cars stance, but I got the impression that nobody were exactly sure how much this should be lowered and would it get too close to the wheel. I saw some pictures of Ray's car, but didn't find info what set-up did Ray use. Did he lower the spring support or was the car lowered only by raplacing the original cartridges with the Audi-Rabbit set-up.
As I mentiond earlier, I'm not into lowering this car, but if it improves the handling significantly and makes this car safer to drive, I might try it -even if it changes the original looks.
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Lahti411
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:23 pm
About those strut bearings.
So I guess the foremost bolt in the asymmetrical bearing extrudes more from the base of the bearing (is this understandable...?) than in a symmetrical bearing? So the bearing is going to sit a bit more closer to the firewall causing reposition of the large hole? Perhaps I could use a Super Beetle repairing panel to relocate the bolts and the bearing? Then I would certainly have neat looks and all the holes for the new bearing would be there. But this leads me to another question: How can I locate these panels so that the new strut supports would sit in a right position and be symmetrical when comparing left-hand and right-hand sides of the car?
So I guess the foremost bolt in the asymmetrical bearing extrudes more from the base of the bearing (is this understandable...?) than in a symmetrical bearing? So the bearing is going to sit a bit more closer to the firewall causing reposition of the large hole? Perhaps I could use a Super Beetle repairing panel to relocate the bolts and the bearing? Then I would certainly have neat looks and all the holes for the new bearing would be there. But this leads me to another question: How can I locate these panels so that the new strut supports would sit in a right position and be symmetrical when comparing left-hand and right-hand sides of the car?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
No, you do not have to use the golf/rabbit strut tube to use the audi strut cartridges. It appears you are mixing up threads....there were so many....it would not be hard to do. The Rabbit strut tube thread was a seperate method. It is very clean...but is also the most complex.
You can use the stock springs (and they are excellent), stockstrut tube and stock everything else.....with the audi strut cartridges, but you must have a stub adaptor for the top of the audi strut cartridges machined. It is very simple. If you send me a PM...I will e-mail you the exact measurments and drawing.
This allows the audi cartridge whose rod is slightly short, to bolt up to the original strut bushings. You will also need to make a spacer to sit underneath the audi cartridge to make it sit up higher within the 411/412 strut tube...so the seal face of the cartridge fits exactly where the stock strut tube did....right under the cap. I usually use a simple piece of steel pipe threaded on one end wit ha pipe cap on teh end under the cartridge. Then cut it to length.
As wildthings noted, you will need to clearance the centerhole for the strut bushing and drill new holes. You can bend the edges up like factory like he did...or cut the hole smooth and make a flat 1/8" thick plate with the same hole pattern to sandwich from the top for strength like I did. Both ways if you are careful will look superb.
The KYB Gr-2 low pressure gas struts for the audi handle super and have th correct....or narly so...valving. The KYB gas-a-just high pressure gas struts...DO NOT hve the correct valving. They will break things quickly.
PM me and I can help you with what you need and the details for installing the stubs. There are some other small mods (just a few added parts) also. Ray
You can use the stock springs (and they are excellent), stockstrut tube and stock everything else.....with the audi strut cartridges, but you must have a stub adaptor for the top of the audi strut cartridges machined. It is very simple. If you send me a PM...I will e-mail you the exact measurments and drawing.
This allows the audi cartridge whose rod is slightly short, to bolt up to the original strut bushings. You will also need to make a spacer to sit underneath the audi cartridge to make it sit up higher within the 411/412 strut tube...so the seal face of the cartridge fits exactly where the stock strut tube did....right under the cap. I usually use a simple piece of steel pipe threaded on one end wit ha pipe cap on teh end under the cartridge. Then cut it to length.
As wildthings noted, you will need to clearance the centerhole for the strut bushing and drill new holes. You can bend the edges up like factory like he did...or cut the hole smooth and make a flat 1/8" thick plate with the same hole pattern to sandwich from the top for strength like I did. Both ways if you are careful will look superb.
The KYB Gr-2 low pressure gas struts for the audi handle super and have th correct....or narly so...valving. The KYB gas-a-just high pressure gas struts...DO NOT hve the correct valving. They will break things quickly.
PM me and I can help you with what you need and the details for installing the stubs. There are some other small mods (just a few added parts) also. Ray
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func412
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:55 am
I don´t know if this is any help, but I used Audi 80 front struts (B2 model from early 80's?) in our 412 racer. I got the idea from the posts that Ray had posted here. I had to shorten the tubes. First I cut off all what was needed to fit struts into the tubes, but the front end lowered a bit too much because of the shorter strut. Afterwards I lengthened it a bit, so in the pictures you can see the adapter needed under the strut.
We had to cut the front springs also because of the shorter strut. We also removed the spacer from the tip of the original "strut bar (?)".
-EDIT-
The results were these: The UPPER picture shows the ride height, when I shortened the tubes about 2 cm and used the spacer under the strut. LOWER picture shows how low the front end went when the tube was cutted to fit strut length (about 5,5 cm off). You must know, that the springs were cut shorter and there was not very much "out-suspension (?)" left. The front end got very tight. The tyre in the picture is 195/50x15".
We had to cut the front springs also because of the shorter strut. We also removed the spacer from the tip of the original "strut bar (?)".
-EDIT-
The results were these: The UPPER picture shows the ride height, when I shortened the tubes about 2 cm and used the spacer under the strut. LOWER picture shows how low the front end went when the tube was cutted to fit strut length (about 5,5 cm off). You must know, that the springs were cut shorter and there was not very much "out-suspension (?)" left. The front end got very tight. The tyre in the picture is 195/50x15".
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Lahti411
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:23 pm
Thanks for the replies guys!
The method Ray was explaining seems to be the way to go in my case. Its's simple, obviously won't iclude too radical lowering and makes the car easier to service in the future. I have still one question about this improvement though: Is the Audi cartridge thinner by diameter than the original and should I make some kind of sleeve (holder) to place the new cartridge tighter in the original strut tube?
I still have a NOS pair of the original length strut cartridges, but I'm thinking at the moment, I will never use them -after all it's, impossible to know if they still work properly and, eventually, I will have to change to Audi cartridges, 'cause the original cartridges are getting impossible to find. By the way, the NOS pair I have is made by Amortex. Did you guys know that this French manufacturer used to make type 4 cartridges?
The method Ray was explaining seems to be the way to go in my case. Its's simple, obviously won't iclude too radical lowering and makes the car easier to service in the future. I have still one question about this improvement though: Is the Audi cartridge thinner by diameter than the original and should I make some kind of sleeve (holder) to place the new cartridge tighter in the original strut tube?
I still have a NOS pair of the original length strut cartridges, but I'm thinking at the moment, I will never use them -after all it's, impossible to know if they still work properly and, eventually, I will have to change to Audi cartridges, 'cause the original cartridges are getting impossible to find. By the way, the NOS pair I have is made by Amortex. Did you guys know that this French manufacturer used to make type 4 cartridges?
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Lahti411
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:23 pm
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func412
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:55 am
Iltoja vaan Lahteen!Lahti411 wrote:Jani!
Are you still using those Opel Manta rear shocks? How are they coping with the cars heavy tail? I haven't found any retailer in Finland who sells Ford truck shocks, which I would like to have in my car. So, if those are too difficult to find, I will have to search for another option.
Yes I Am still using them. And I have to correct, those are Opel Ascona/Manta B FRONT shocks at the rear of 412 so the weight is almost identical for them. Koni Brand. I have no complaining about those so far, but I have only raced 10 hours with them.
You might get the Ford truck shocks by a dealer called "American Import". Here´s the contact info to them: http://www.abc.fi/yritykset/?msid=6&seid=27&cid=23004
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wildthings
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:42 am
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Things to bear in mind. Similar weight of a cars front or rear end has absolutely no bearing on the valving and load characteristics for the struts and shocks.
For example, I used Rancho Rs-9000, five way adjustable shocks from an F-150 pick-up...because the weight was similar. I literally destroyed those shocks in under 6 weeks. This is because.....the leverage distance from the pivot, to the end of the rear wishobone on the 412 is very long....as compared to that of the truck. The force and velocity my 412 exerted on those shocks was roughly 4 times what the truck of the samee weight exerted.
What this demonstrates is that people are forgetting that the valving within struts and shocks are velocity oriented...not weight oriented.
Not saying the opel struts are not good. Iam not familiar with them.
The rear shocks for the 411/412 are exact cross matches to those found on the Ford econoline cargo vans. Not only in dimensions...but in valving.
This is because....even though the cargo van is three times heavier in the front end than the 412 is in the rear.....the stroke distance is the same...and the the leverage distance from the pivot point of the A-arm to the shock mount on the cargo van is approximately 4 times shorter than that of the 411/412 trailing wishbone. They are about equal in both load carrying capacity and stroke velocity.
The method of using the Audi strut and cutting the tube is a good one...if you need serious lowering. This is because it keeps the stock preload of the stock coils...which are superbly calibrated and more than this car will ever need. They will still need the adapter stub that you see on the top of his strut rod......if you plan on keeping teh stock bump stops.
The simpler and also superb handling method is to use the adapter stub and the audi strut with a spacer under the cartridge.
The reason the audi cartridge works so well is that the valving is about the same for velocity as the stock 412, but is about a 25% increase in rebound valving and load carrying. Also....it works because even though it is a shorter cartrdige.....the 411/412 use less than a 6" stroke, which is less than half what is available with the Audi cartridge.
The 411/412 struts did not have huge long rods because they were needed for the stroke of the suspension. They were simply that way because the car was built in such a way that you needed a long strut to reach from the control arm to the strut tower top.
The spacer and stub method (no cutting and welding) brings the front end down about 1" or slightly less...which is dead level with the back.....as measured at the rocker panels under the doors. But....it actually brings teh front aspect down and closes the fender well gap quite a bit more due to castor change and lifting of the back end. Ray
For example, I used Rancho Rs-9000, five way adjustable shocks from an F-150 pick-up...because the weight was similar. I literally destroyed those shocks in under 6 weeks. This is because.....the leverage distance from the pivot, to the end of the rear wishobone on the 412 is very long....as compared to that of the truck. The force and velocity my 412 exerted on those shocks was roughly 4 times what the truck of the samee weight exerted.
What this demonstrates is that people are forgetting that the valving within struts and shocks are velocity oriented...not weight oriented.
Not saying the opel struts are not good. Iam not familiar with them.
The rear shocks for the 411/412 are exact cross matches to those found on the Ford econoline cargo vans. Not only in dimensions...but in valving.
This is because....even though the cargo van is three times heavier in the front end than the 412 is in the rear.....the stroke distance is the same...and the the leverage distance from the pivot point of the A-arm to the shock mount on the cargo van is approximately 4 times shorter than that of the 411/412 trailing wishbone. They are about equal in both load carrying capacity and stroke velocity.
The method of using the Audi strut and cutting the tube is a good one...if you need serious lowering. This is because it keeps the stock preload of the stock coils...which are superbly calibrated and more than this car will ever need. They will still need the adapter stub that you see on the top of his strut rod......if you plan on keeping teh stock bump stops.
The simpler and also superb handling method is to use the adapter stub and the audi strut with a spacer under the cartridge.
The reason the audi cartridge works so well is that the valving is about the same for velocity as the stock 412, but is about a 25% increase in rebound valving and load carrying. Also....it works because even though it is a shorter cartrdige.....the 411/412 use less than a 6" stroke, which is less than half what is available with the Audi cartridge.
The 411/412 struts did not have huge long rods because they were needed for the stroke of the suspension. They were simply that way because the car was built in such a way that you needed a long strut to reach from the control arm to the strut tower top.
The spacer and stub method (no cutting and welding) brings the front end down about 1" or slightly less...which is dead level with the back.....as measured at the rocker panels under the doors. But....it actually brings teh front aspect down and closes the fender well gap quite a bit more due to castor change and lifting of the back end. Ray
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func412
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:55 am
Good info Ray.
I don´t really know how these Opel Koni shocks can be compared to 412 originals. Both lengths are egual but in Opel the shock is installed a bit closer compared to the wheel.
Heres a view of Manta front end:
http://www.romut-radalle.com/viewimg.php?img=2783
http://www.romut-radalle.com/viewimg.php?img=2573
I don´t really know how these Opel Koni shocks can be compared to 412 originals. Both lengths are egual but in Opel the shock is installed a bit closer compared to the wheel.
Heres a view of Manta front end:
http://www.romut-radalle.com/viewimg.php?img=2783
http://www.romut-radalle.com/viewimg.php?img=2573
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
They may not be that bad. Not that the actual lower mount point for the shock on the opel.....is far outside over the end of the lower "A" arm. The axel or pivot point for fort he "A" arm is far inside. The length may actually be similar.
I have found over the years that there are not actually a huge number of totally unique shock valving combinations. Among higher performance machines....sure there were a lot of unique valvling combinations...but on run of the mill cars, the manufacturers were actually pretty smart. If the stroke distance, leverage angles and load ranges were similar....why re-invent the wheel. Use a known valving package and just change the mounting configuration.
This is how I found that the Audi struts should be quite close before I even installed them. I cut open a whole bunch of strut cratridges in the junkyard and inspected the valving. At first, I had no idea what I was looking at. Just took a bunch of notes...and started looking at the way teh suspension was configured on the cars they came from. Tried to get a feel for the weight and leverage from looking at parts.
Yes, the Audi 80 and 100/5000 were candiates too...but at least on the ones I found over here, the rod and cartridge were fatter. It was installation issues.
Ray
I have found over the years that there are not actually a huge number of totally unique shock valving combinations. Among higher performance machines....sure there were a lot of unique valvling combinations...but on run of the mill cars, the manufacturers were actually pretty smart. If the stroke distance, leverage angles and load ranges were similar....why re-invent the wheel. Use a known valving package and just change the mounting configuration.
This is how I found that the Audi struts should be quite close before I even installed them. I cut open a whole bunch of strut cratridges in the junkyard and inspected the valving. At first, I had no idea what I was looking at. Just took a bunch of notes...and started looking at the way teh suspension was configured on the cars they came from. Tried to get a feel for the weight and leverage from looking at parts.
Yes, the Audi 80 and 100/5000 were candiates too...but at least on the ones I found over here, the rod and cartridge were fatter. It was installation issues.
Ray
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Sorry...I have so many places I check for e-mail....I many times forget to check the PM's. I will respond quickly! Ray