Please help troubleshoot a Pertronix install

[Dangermouse]

Gentlemen, I crave your indulgence…

I’m attempting to install a Pertronix Points Replacement module into my Beetle, it ain’t going according to plan...

The car is running the stock 6V system, with pretty new Bosch blue coil.

Let me firstly confirm that prior to starting out, the engine was running in tip-top shape (Why then, you cry, did I mess with it then... because I can! (or at least I thought I could )

So I removed the distributor for convenience sake, removed the points and condenser and put in the pertronix unit. The pertronix 1849N6 is the one that was recommended for my distributor and it seems to fit very well. Its appropriate for a 6 volter anyhow.

I wired up the black wire from the pertronix to terminal 1 on the coil, the same terminal my condenser had attached to, and red wire to terminal 15 which also feeds my choke and idle shutoff solenoid.





Cannot for the life of me now get the engine to start; she’s dead Jim.

I appreciate that the timing will have moved with the installation of the module but I can’t find any position that will allow the engine to even start that might subsequently be fine tuned with a strobe light. Not being able to time it statically doesn’t help much either…

In an effort to see where it was kicking in, I grounded the coil output wire (the centre HT lead on the distributor cap) so that I could at least watch for a spark and confirm that I was getting that much at least. And it does spark strongly but not where I would have thought it should. To get a spark somewhere between TDC and 7.5BTDC with Cylinder #1, the distributor had to be very advanced (turned CCW with vacuum unit practically facing the rear).

Another thing that struck me as odd - as I rotated the crank pulley back and forth to try and dial in the spark as I would when static timing with a timing light, I noticed that I only saw a spark when moving the pulley CCW, but not CW. I had to turn the pulley back to see spark. Odd? I didn’t install it upside down, honest.

Armed with these paltry bit of information; what should I try next?

Alternatively, where did I go wrong? Am I missing something obvious?

[david58]

From your post it sounds like you have fire just not at the right time. With the engine on TDC on compression stroke you should be able to check spark on #1 cylinder by rotating the dist. back and forth with the key on. If it doesn't spark then you have the dist. indexed wrong. One more thing is the rotor button installed and also the round piece that came with the ignition that fits under the rotor? I see neither in the pic you have posted. If either is missing the coil will fire and the plugs won't.

[2088 bob]

Dangermouse Just a general comment about these units i have had one in my rabbit 009 for about 10 years now, thing has never missed a beat,good units do there jobs well

BUT! no matter who's unit they are be it pertronix, compufire and there are now a few knock off ones out there

PLEASE READ AND HEED! if you hook them up backwards, they become useless junk instantly! .So for anyone installing a module like this please verify your connections and then double check again because trust me you won't get a second chance .I don't understand why the manufacturers are not installing a diode to protect against this problem

Anyway i know this is not your problem, Dangermouse because your unit is actually generating a spark, sounds to me like you just have got your dist out of place , or pieces missing

As far as statement I made above trust me i have gone to the school of hard knocks on that one, And am just trying to save someone else the aggravation of the same issue

not so much pertronix but compufire like to use this as a warranty escape clause

and check what dave said about the rotor button first you need all the pieces in place for it to function properly

[Dangermouse]

If it doesn't spark then you have the dist. indexed wrong

This refers to the dizzy being out by 180 degrees, firing on three instead of one? Maybe. As far as I can tell, the dizzy will only go back in one way because of the offset in the groove of the drive? I should try lifting the dizzy, rotating the crankpully 360 degrees and dropping it back down again?

One more thing is the rotor button installed and also the round piece that came with the ignition that fits under the rotor? I see neither in the pic you have posted. If either is missing the coil will fire and the plugs won't.

Yep, rotor was in there, just removed for the pic, but very easily forgotton – been there before. There was no extra round piece under the rotor, everything that came with the kit is on there. There’s no mention of this piece in the instructions either, maybe it’s a Compufire component rather than Pertronix?

PLEASE READ AND HEED! if you hook them up backwards, they become useless junk instantly!

Indeed, I was aware that hooking them up in reverse could potentially fry the unit so was very careful not to, but yes its worth stating huh.
I am seeing a spark so I know its capable of working. I’ll try reinserting the dizzy first after rotating the crank through 360 and maybe confirm TDC on 1 by having a look at the position of the valves.

[MedicTed]

I’ll try reinserting the dizzy first after rotating the crank through 360 and maybe confirm TDC on 1 by having a look at the position of the valves.

Good idea.

[Dangermouse]

Right, so, I have confirmed TDC on #1 by checking that both valves are closed. At this point the rotor is pointing to the notch on the dizzy body and to #1 spark plug lead. I am getting a spark from the HT lead pretty much at TDC but she’s still not starting. Cranks over ok but no suggestion of any actual ignition.

At least this suggests that the unit seems to be functional but not why the engine won’t kick in. As I said, prior to installation of the pertronix, it was going fine which rules out fuel problems, it must be spark related. I didn’t disconnect the plug leads from the cap so they are correct and I’ve re-confirmed this.

I’ll get a helper tomorrow to turn it over while I confirm that there’s a spark at the plugs, beyond that I’m stumped as to what to try next but I’m still worried there’s something obvious I’m overlooking…

[MedicTed]

Did you get the position of the dizzy corrected? I'm assuming that you did, but figured I'd ask. If you did not change the fuel set up, and assuming that the pistons, cylinders and rings did not implode, then you have two of the four things required. It soulds like you have spark, so something must be wrong with the timing. Go back and check that the rotor towards #1 and TDC on #1 are correct. Trace your plug wires, just to verify.

[david58]

If you get one of these.

You can Accurately check for spark in ignition systems without removing spark plug from engine. Testers verify that energy is sufficient for spark plug to fire.
With the engine in TDC compression stroke and with the key on you can rotate the dist. back and forth to see if the # 1 clyinder is firing and confirm that the dist is properly installed. This excites the coil and the spark goes into the cap down the rotor out the wire to the plug. I have never seen this procedure in a book I ran across it by accident once having trouble indexing a dist.

[Dangermouse]

Did you get the position of the dizzy corrected?

I believe so; it looks right. I confirmed TDC on 1 by the valves, both closed fully, with play in rocker arm. At this position, the rotor is pointing to plug lead going to #1. Wires triple checked, 1432 CW.

I'm even getting a nice spark at the plug So it looks now like its not even something to do with the pertronix anymore but a more basic not-starting issue.

At the moment, its timed to fire at exactly TDC, this should work well enough to fire the engine?

[MedicTed]

I believe so; it looks right. I confirmed TDC on 1 by the valves, both closed fully, with play in rocker arm. At this position, the rotor is pointing to plug lead going to #1. Wires triple checked, 1432 CW.

I'm even getting a nice spark at the plug So it looks now like its not even something to do with the pertronix anymore but a more basic not-starting issue.

At the moment, its timed to fire at exactly TDC, this should work well enough to fire the engine?

TDC should be good enough to get it running. If you have spark, then it's probably not the Pertronix. Check to make sure the plugs are not fouled.

[Dangermouse]

Well I've troubleshot the bejeezus out of it and still not a hint of fire.

Rechecked valve position with regard to TDC on 1 and also with a finger down the spark plug hole; rotor is definitely on the compression stroke and firing at TDC. Confimed gas in the float and accelerator pump aok.
Plugs look fine and engine was running sweetly beforehand.

While I can confirm spark, I can't tell much about quality of spark can I. I thought these things were supposed to deliver more rather than less oomph to the plugs. And I can't even adjust the points; I'm starting to miss them a bit...

Its so odd, its not even struggling to go, I haven't heard one cylinder fire.
My poor old battery is pretty tired now after all the cranking so I'll bring it in and give it a charge. Its still reading 6.4V though.

[david58]

One of these costs less than 10 bucks.

Worth it's weight in gold. If it is firing then you have enough spark. You should hear the spark as well as see it. The spark should be blue not orange. If it is orange you have a weak coil. The method I posted in my last post will tell you if the dist is in the right position or not.

[Dangermouse]

One of these costs less than 10 bucks.

What is one of those called exactly? Spark tester?

Anyhow, here's the latest....

Having run out of ideas, I swapped out the dizzy for a spare I had already rigged with points and condenser (that I was going to carry in the car against the day that the Pertronix shat itself and left me stranded somewhere. This piece of advice that seems to be consistently offered when installing these things).

The car started in an instant and idled nicely . This obviously rules out a lot of other potential problems, the fault seems to lie entirely with the Pertronix and the 'quality' of its output somehow. But it is producing a spark, visible and audible at the plug. I thought these things either worked perfectly or not at all.

I'm utterly stumped now.

[david58]

How does the spark compare to the Pertronix?

[Dangermouse]

I'd say the spark from the points set looks brighter and stronger, but then what I don't understand is why this should be. The points/pertronix is just the trigger, the sparks come from the same coil no?