QSC "2.4L" Waterboxer pistons
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No, they're still in the box they came in. I'm waiting and waiting on the rods getting rebushed for the wbx pins. For sure, though, these pistons will get a haircut to zero out the deck with the 5.5" rods. By the math, it's 1.6mm off the top, but the actual mockup will determine the real number, based on real rather than imaginary combustion seal thickness.
One thing I discovered about these QSC's which has to be corrected, is that the wrist pins they included are a bit too long. Won't fit between the clips. They just pulled some pins off the shelf, I'm sure. I told the guy at QSC about the problem, so hopefully they will correct it. But I suppose I'll have to turn mine down shorter.
One thing I discovered about these QSC's which has to be corrected, is that the wrist pins they included are a bit too long. Won't fit between the clips. They just pulled some pins off the shelf, I'm sure. I told the guy at QSC about the problem, so hopefully they will correct it. But I suppose I'll have to turn mine down shorter.
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No from my end, I have been either rained out or had more pressing projects for the last month.
Shooting for this weekend... We'll see.
The AAs look OK, save for the previously mentioned deck height issue.
Shooting for this weekend... We'll see.
The AAs look OK, save for the previously mentioned deck height issue.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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OK..
on a stock bottom end do they need much work then?
I have to look at doing an engine.. my 1.9 in the syncro doka has started to blow oil out on overun so its got to come out soon, + the caravelle has a problem now too so that has to be pulled... could be I just swap heads on the caravelle and keep it going, but the syncro is a bit more work removing it and I have to change the box while I am there... then there are things like fuel tank straps to look at etc..... not to mention the exhaust system is "hanging".........
Thought was, while I am doing an engine, I may as well throw in some 2.2's.......
on a stock bottom end do they need much work then?
I have to look at doing an engine.. my 1.9 in the syncro doka has started to blow oil out on overun so its got to come out soon, + the caravelle has a problem now too so that has to be pulled... could be I just swap heads on the caravelle and keep it going, but the syncro is a bit more work removing it and I have to change the box while I am there... then there are things like fuel tank straps to look at etc..... not to mention the exhaust system is "hanging".........
Thought was, while I am doing an engine, I may as well throw in some 2.2's.......
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- Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:13 am
Not on a 69mm crank, you won't. You could use them, and get a 2.0, if you got longer rods and decked the pistons accordingly. You would really want to get 5.7"rods, because even 5.6" wouldn't get any available 96mm pistons over zero deck on a 69mm crank.
My bottom end is built ( with a CB-Eagle 2254 cam and modified EMPI 4130 5.5" I-beams) and I'm decking my QSC's now. Got three of them done yesterday, and the last one this AM. They ended up being on average 0.075" or 1.9mm over, which was even more than I figured. There was some variance in the pistons' comp heights, one was off one thou and another 3 thou, plus some variance in my modified rods. I measured the variances by putting all the pistons in turn on the same rod with the same cylinder, then used an average piston on each rod postion to get the variance in the actual rod lengths. Then juggled the pistons to decide which one went where for the best overall average of cutting, then miked each one in position to get the actual haircut depths.
Another problem I found with the QSC's was the rings they included. I figured they were poor quality so I planned on getting better ones, but it turns out they are completely useless as is. What they did was copy the groove widths of a stock piston (1.75/2/3.5), without bothering to see if anyone made a 96mm ringset in those widths. Believe me no one offers a set off the shelf like that. So, QSC just put in the closest rings that would fit. The scraper is tight enough, but the sideplay on the top two rings is out of spec already, new. I had 5 and 6 thou side clearance on the top and middle ring, respectively.
So, more research, found that a Volvo B23 engine used 96mm pistons, with two different ringsets specified, one with 1.75/2/4, one with 1.75/1.75/3.5.
http://www.deves.com/devesrings/cars_VOLVO.html
Contacted Deves and they are making me custom sets by mixing rings from those two sets, for $100 a set.
Another crisis narrowly averted.
My bottom end is built ( with a CB-Eagle 2254 cam and modified EMPI 4130 5.5" I-beams) and I'm decking my QSC's now. Got three of them done yesterday, and the last one this AM. They ended up being on average 0.075" or 1.9mm over, which was even more than I figured. There was some variance in the pistons' comp heights, one was off one thou and another 3 thou, plus some variance in my modified rods. I measured the variances by putting all the pistons in turn on the same rod with the same cylinder, then used an average piston on each rod postion to get the variance in the actual rod lengths. Then juggled the pistons to decide which one went where for the best overall average of cutting, then miked each one in position to get the actual haircut depths.
Another problem I found with the QSC's was the rings they included. I figured they were poor quality so I planned on getting better ones, but it turns out they are completely useless as is. What they did was copy the groove widths of a stock piston (1.75/2/3.5), without bothering to see if anyone made a 96mm ringset in those widths. Believe me no one offers a set off the shelf like that. So, QSC just put in the closest rings that would fit. The scraper is tight enough, but the sideplay on the top two rings is out of spec already, new. I had 5 and 6 thou side clearance on the top and middle ring, respectively.
So, more research, found that a Volvo B23 engine used 96mm pistons, with two different ringsets specified, one with 1.75/2/4, one with 1.75/1.75/3.5.
http://www.deves.com/devesrings/cars_VOLVO.html
Contacted Deves and they are making me custom sets by mixing rings from those two sets, for $100 a set.
Another crisis narrowly averted.
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I am not using a 69 crank.. 2.1 all the way.. sorry for the confusion there.. no point in doing the pistons without the crank.. the crank makes a huge difference to a 1.9 so I am hoping the pistons add a bit more..
Mmm, sounds like they were not thought out then... maybe I should pay the price for the GW ones!!! and get a real bolt in set... They dont seem to be the bargains once thought!!
Cheers
Mmm, sounds like they were not thought out then... maybe I should pay the price for the GW ones!!! and get a real bolt in set... They dont seem to be the bargains once thought!!
Cheers
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- Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:13 am
Well, they're still a bargain if you don't mind the extra legwork, but of course their real quality is yet to be seen. They could just swell up and seize as soon as they get hot for all I know. I'm being a willing guinea pig here. I'm putting them in a test motor that I plan on opening up in a year or so to see how the pistons and some other components I haven't used before hold up under real use. But I can see nothing else wrong with the pistons and cylinders outwardly. Besides their low price, I actually got them specifically because of the low comp height, because I wanted to shave the tops to zero deck to raise CR:
This is the above-deck measurement of a typical piston:
Here's the fixture I threw together to face off the tops:
I'm just using some wrist pins from a set of Cofap pistons. Tool steel pins don't wear out in aluminum pistons and bronze bushings, so they're good to reuse almost endlessly.
The rings are costing me an extra $100 from Deves. Next time I'll just open up the oil scraper gap to 4mm, since I'll have them on the lathe anyway, and then I can use a standard Volvo set, #2186 in the link above. Don't know why I didn't think of that this time.
So in all I still only have $300 invested in them, half of a set of Wiseco's.
They're not well though out, though, that much is plain. I have trouble believing how people can go to the trouble to make a product for market, and leave so many important details unresolved. It's kind of a slapdash approach. I've been in touch with David Shum at QSC and gave him feedback on the comp height and wrist pins being wrong; now I guess I'll set them straight on their unusable rings. At some point they'll end up offering a product that you can use right out of the box, unless they decide to just drop it from their offerings, like they did with the wbx heads.
This is the above-deck measurement of a typical piston:
Here's the fixture I threw together to face off the tops:
I'm just using some wrist pins from a set of Cofap pistons. Tool steel pins don't wear out in aluminum pistons and bronze bushings, so they're good to reuse almost endlessly.
The rings are costing me an extra $100 from Deves. Next time I'll just open up the oil scraper gap to 4mm, since I'll have them on the lathe anyway, and then I can use a standard Volvo set, #2186 in the link above. Don't know why I didn't think of that this time.
So in all I still only have $300 invested in them, half of a set of Wiseco's.
They're not well though out, though, that much is plain. I have trouble believing how people can go to the trouble to make a product for market, and leave so many important details unresolved. It's kind of a slapdash approach. I've been in touch with David Shum at QSC and gave him feedback on the comp height and wrist pins being wrong; now I guess I'll set them straight on their unusable rings. At some point they'll end up offering a product that you can use right out of the box, unless they decide to just drop it from their offerings, like they did with the wbx heads.
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esp. considering the exchange rate, I'd buy the WISECOS.
Just fixing the comp. height issue is a PITA on the AAs, and I am not 100% comfortable with the fix.
Just fixing the comp. height issue is a PITA on the AAs, and I am not 100% comfortable with the fix.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Posts: 424
- Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:13 am
Yeah, well, dealing with the rods was the biggest hassle. But that's what I wanted to do. Shaving the pistons was a breeze once I worked out a good fixture.
But for a bolt-on P&L set that's bigger, with stock rods and no extra machining, and without lowering CR, the Wisecos are really the only game in town.
Make sure you get the reworked copper sealing rings from GW if you order from them. They include them with the set, but don't let them forget to send them as shipping out these sets isn't part of their parts routine (they forgot mine and shipped them later, but no cost). Otherwise, an enlarged sealing ring is not available anywhere I could find. The OEM ones are very close, less than a 1mm overhang within a 96mm bore, so I'm using those and cut a little extra chamfer on the top edge of the piston crown to guarantee clearance with expansion.
But for a bolt-on P&L set that's bigger, with stock rods and no extra machining, and without lowering CR, the Wisecos are really the only game in town.
Make sure you get the reworked copper sealing rings from GW if you order from them. They include them with the set, but don't let them forget to send them as shipping out these sets isn't part of their parts routine (they forgot mine and shipped them later, but no cost). Otherwise, an enlarged sealing ring is not available anywhere I could find. The OEM ones are very close, less than a 1mm overhang within a 96mm bore, so I'm using those and cut a little extra chamfer on the top edge of the piston crown to guarantee clearance with expansion.
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Yeah with the exchange rate the GW set make a lot of sense, but it makes the QSC's exceeeedingly cheap also.. the big downside for me is I dont have access to any machine shop now.. I used to have the full monty back in the Isle of Man... so it makes for a real pain in the a$$....
If they were to sort the items that Tencentlife has found then they would be really good.. I agree... why go to all that trouble to make things with flaws that were not that difficult to see... maybe they are pistons from something else.. we just havent found it!!!
OK.. I will ensure they send a set of seals too.. that was another problem I was concerned about!!
I will have to check the numbers on cost, if I can find someone to machine the liners here then that would save a lot of weight and costs...
If they were to sort the items that Tencentlife has found then they would be really good.. I agree... why go to all that trouble to make things with flaws that were not that difficult to see... maybe they are pistons from something else.. we just havent found it!!!
OK.. I will ensure they send a set of seals too.. that was another problem I was concerned about!!
I will have to check the numbers on cost, if I can find someone to machine the liners here then that would save a lot of weight and costs...
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Just for grins, here's a post I put up at Samba with mucho pics of this motor going together with the QSC's, etc.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=254338
Been running it for a few weeks now. Played with different combos of rocker ratios once it was basically broken in, to see what works best for hill-climbing power at cruising speeds. Turns out 1.1's on intakes and 1.25's on exhausts is the best combo for now. Really great low-end torque, this would be a great Syncro motor, but I'm still not getting the high-rev power I thought this combo would give. I'm using a S&S header with 1.5" (1 3/8" ID) runners. I think going up an eighth in runner size and getting the lengths equal might get the scavenging going on the overlap, and wake up the high-rpm power I know is lurking in there. It has excellent torque up to about 3600, but kinda flattens out at that point. So looks like I'm going to get into exhaust fabrication, as no one makes a tuned header in 1.5" for use on a wbx in a Vanagon. I know custom it could be done, but that's too much money for me. Basically, I overcammed it, and now I'm trying to make it work better with what's in there.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=254338
Been running it for a few weeks now. Played with different combos of rocker ratios once it was basically broken in, to see what works best for hill-climbing power at cruising speeds. Turns out 1.1's on intakes and 1.25's on exhausts is the best combo for now. Really great low-end torque, this would be a great Syncro motor, but I'm still not getting the high-rev power I thought this combo would give. I'm using a S&S header with 1.5" (1 3/8" ID) runners. I think going up an eighth in runner size and getting the lengths equal might get the scavenging going on the overlap, and wake up the high-rpm power I know is lurking in there. It has excellent torque up to about 3600, but kinda flattens out at that point. So looks like I'm going to get into exhaust fabrication, as no one makes a tuned header in 1.5" for use on a wbx in a Vanagon. I know custom it could be done, but that's too much money for me. Basically, I overcammed it, and now I'm trying to make it work better with what's in there.
- Piledriver
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Very Nice.
May be worth a chip... Place in Cali still makes them, sell them on ebay, or sell direct. Indicated they can do custom bits... At high alt you may need it, and with the cam you probably could use more timing/jck with the mix. (WBO2?)
My motor is ~together, but on hold as I waffle on lifters. The Schubecks are very likely to end up in the wasser, at least for awhile. (call me chicken, but I have been bitten twice by the Cam/lifter Woes)
May be worth a chip... Place in Cali still makes them, sell them on ebay, or sell direct. Indicated they can do custom bits... At high alt you may need it, and with the cam you probably could use more timing/jck with the mix. (WBO2?)
My motor is ~together, but on hold as I waffle on lifters. The Schubecks are very likely to end up in the wasser, at least for awhile. (call me chicken, but I have been bitten twice by the Cam/lifter Woes)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:01 am
I am working on a wbx header at the mo... its been a while coming but very close now...
but shipping and price to the US would be a killer for you guys...
What cam you got in the combo?
Sounds strange using the 1.1's on the intake and 1.25's on the exhaust... from my research, I was getting that the intake is what wakes up this engine... but then I am running a single twin choke carb centrally mounted
hope this doesnt screw up my plan... ah well its R&D... and practice...
I have aquired a set of new Oettinger 2.5L piston & cyls... so thats the "premium" motor i am aiming for... I think intake will be the critical point on that...
Lifters are the worrying bit for me too... as it still doesnt seem clear what I should use... even if I bush the case for type 1 lifters.....
ANy suggestions either way? 1's or 4's
but shipping and price to the US would be a killer for you guys...
What cam you got in the combo?
Sounds strange using the 1.1's on the intake and 1.25's on the exhaust... from my research, I was getting that the intake is what wakes up this engine... but then I am running a single twin choke carb centrally mounted
hope this doesnt screw up my plan... ah well its R&D... and practice...
I have aquired a set of new Oettinger 2.5L piston & cyls... so thats the "premium" motor i am aiming for... I think intake will be the critical point on that...
Lifters are the worrying bit for me too... as it still doesnt seem clear what I should use... even if I bush the case for type 1 lifters.....
ANy suggestions either way? 1's or 4's