Oil Flow Pic Thread

[david58]

Schematic for full flow filter and or cooler



External Oil Filter hookup

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 24eca1025d

Too much oil pressure-blowing filter seal why?

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 3ae265d64e

[Bugfuel]

VERY nice post!

Jan

[david58]

VERY nice post!

Jan

Thanks Bugfuel but I was hoping we had some more input on this thread. Pics of the oiling system in the block would be a big plus.

[Bugfuel]

Alright..

- I would also plug the oil passage leading from the pump outlet to the main oil galley. It is not being used after the full flow mod, but there is no benefit in leaving it pressurized. In fact, it may leak oil back into the case, or even leak out past the pump. many pumps today don't seal very well. Eliminate oil pressure from the pump bore completely!

- use a pump cover with a pressure relief valve. (Berg). This also requires frequent oil and filter changes to keep the oil clean. Dirt particles in the oil may jam the valve.

- invest in good hoses with some type of threaded, sealing connectors. (as pictured above). Forget hose clamps. Really, do not use hose clamps.

- use teflon tape in the fitting threads.

-30mm pumps are overkill on most but all-out race engines. More trouble than what they are worth. Go with an aluminum bodied 26 at most.

- yea, try to stick with aluminum pumps. They expand and contract roughly at the same rate and amount with the case when they get warm. A steel pump in the alu/mag case gets very loose when the engine warms up. (leaks more than likely).

- if you raise the oil pressure noticeably from stock, you also change the way the oil flows inside the engine. Too much pressure will cause a control valve to allow more/most of the oil to bypass the cooler. (yes, it will cause overheating)

- MOST engines do not need an extra oil cooler. Only use one if you need one, and everything else is ok. MOST overheating is result of something being WRONG in the design or build of the engine. Fix the problem, don't hide it with extra cooling. Overcooling is bad too. The oil NEEDS to run at it's designed normal operating temperature. That's also the only way to get rid of moisture condensation inside the engine. Many engine parts rely on running at a carefully designed temperature, cold parts wear more.


This the sort of contribution you were thinking?

[david58]

Yes Bugfuel thanks.

Here is that schematic, thanks Mark H.

This is a visual of what SpazMO is saying.
The older I get the more I need pictures and I borrowed this engine case picture from TOS.
I sucked in high school art class so bear with me.......

Red line represents oil path when it is hot and the viscosity has thinned somewhat.
Light blue line represents the oil coming from the cooler down to where it intersects that plug between 3-4.
Bearings, lifter bores, etc fed from that point

Dark blue line represents the oil path when cold.
Bypasses cooler and intersects that same plug and then feeds the above mentioned parts.

Yellow is plunger/spring for oil cooler bypass.
Green is oil pressure relief. Dumps excess back to case sump.

If there is a thermostat kinda plunger that bypasses the oil cooler, that could be a problem.
However, I would expect pressure to still build in the oil cooler.

Accumulator should still see pressure but it would be backfed when the oil is cold.

As soon as I get that schematic I'll post it up..........

[david58]

Here is a diagram of a Oil Accumulator. posted in this thread.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... highlight=

I got the replacement from FOA. Then to be sure I went out and purchased a new pump that directs the oil outside like a full flow system. I went out of the pump into an oil filter, then up to a T that the Oil Accumulator is connected to. Then through an oil cooler and down back to the return line to the rest of the system.

Here is a diagram:



Keep in mind this is all EXTERNAL except for the pump of course. The oil cooler and accumulator sit on the back of the buggy.

Sadly, I havent been able to get back to this. I got it all setup and tested it quickly and noticed I wasnt getting additional pressure like I should be on the air side of the accumulator. I didnt have time to look into it and left the buggy at home and went to sand lake. Then I had a tree that tried to kill me when I was on my Quad. Ended up breaking a couple ribs and I ahvent been able to get back out to the garage since. Doc says I cant do anything strenuous for another 6-8 weeks...

[david58]

http://www.huelsmann.us/bugman/FilterTech.html

Good stuff...........

[M-Owen]

On a simular note does anyone have a diagram for a dry sump system?

[Glenn]

There is an excellent topic on the Samba with some very detailed diagrams.

Take a look: Dual relief oiling system. How it works.

Here's just one diagram...

[david58]

Great diagram Glenn.

[david58]

A lot of people dont seem to understand how the Oiling system works So I will try to explain it with drawings and tests that I did years ago. We tested 100 VW stock dual relief motors.

All motors were diaasembled, cleaned and had cranks reground and new bearings installed to spec.

The same oil pump was used in each motor.

The same oil cooler was used on each motor.

All the cases were line bored, full flowed and a flow meter was installed in the loop from the pump to the case.

This first drawing is the oil flow and pressures when cold with a oil temperature at 80 F.

There was a wide variety of pressures and flows recorded and I will explain the findings when I come to them.

I will add new drawings as I transfer the data to the drawings.



Next drawing.
This is the flows and pressures at 120 F oil trmperature. At this point oil is just starting to flow thru the oil cooler.




Next drawing.
Here you see the motors are at operating temps, 180F Everything should be fine but the relief valve is still open. We kept running the motors and most of them reached 225 before we shut them off and most of the relief valves never closed.the relief valves never closed. The motors never went over 225 either. All the excess oil is still running out the control valve. It is open 100%. I will explain this in another drawing.







Next drawing.
Here are the motors at Idle. Notice that the relief valve has closed and the control valve is closed. All the oil is now flowing thru the oil cooler.



Next Drawing.
This is again up to 3000 RPM after Idle at 190F
Notice now the relief valve is closed and the control valve is open.
All the oil is flowing thru the cooler and a lot of oil is flowing out the control valve. Interesting aspect of the relief valve and is that it opens at a much higher pressure than it closes at. Ill explain that in another drawing.



Next drawing. Here is where we started having problems.
30mm pumps.

Notice the high pressures. There were 6 motors that reached that pressure due to different reasons. We lost 6 oil coolers at this point. Had to find the problems and retest all 6. Today this would show up as blown oil filters too.

Notice the increase in oil volumn. . This extra oil has nowhere to go because the oil relief hole is too small. that is why the pressure increases so much.



Here is 120F notice how no oil flow thru the cooler. Pressures are equal everywhere.



Here is 190F The oil is flowing thru the cooler but the relief valve does not close due to the high pressure.



Here the motor goes back to Idle and still the pressure is too high to close the valve.



Here is a section of the oil control valve Notice the opening and closing pressures of the piston.



This is the plug that needs to be removed and drilled.



Oil Flow restrictor. I will update this later.

[david58]

Be sure you have the right seals for the case and cooler you are using.

[JSL56]

Hi,

This is a GREAT thread! Can I just ask as 'stoopid' question. Your comment about a 30mm oil pump being overkill. Are you saying that its fine to use a stock oil pump and just get a tapped pump cover to re-direct the oil to the filter? like in the link below.
http://www.coolairvw.co.uk/ca/3764/mia/ ... id/6558087

If the tapped pump cover has a pressure relief valve what would this do? Does it restrict oil depending on engine pressure? Im thinking of feeding a turbo from the pump cover and I dont want to starve the turbo of oil.

Also has anyone had any experience with one of these?

http://www.coolairvw.co.uk/ca/3764/mia/pid/10178908

Seems a little less scary than pulling a plug and trying to thread the case for full flow. BUT It could be rubbish? Anyone used one before?

Cheers,

James


[quote="Bugfuel"]Alright..

- I would also plug the oil passage leading from the pump outlet to the main oil galley. It is not being used after the full flow mod, but there is no benefit in leaving it pressurized. In fact, it may leak oil back into the case, or even leak out past the pump. many pumps today don't seal very well. Eliminate oil pressure from the pump bore completely!

Do you have any pictures of the above operation?

- use a pump cover with a pressure relief valve. (Berg). This also requires frequent oil and filter changes to keep the oil clean. Dirt particles in the oil may jam the valve.

-30mm pumps are overkill on most but all-out race engines. More trouble than what they are worth. Go with an aluminum bodied 26 at most.

[cb77305]

So good to see Bugfuel's comments - he's really posting common sense here. Way back in October '81 Gene Berg wrote a letter that was published in DB&HVW's Tech Talk column. (It's the only issue I've saved!) At the time I read that letter I had been collecting all the parts necessary to install an external oil cooler. After reading the article I sold all those parts at a swap meet. The changes I DID make were to install both oil pressure and oil temperature gauges. For the longest time I never saw anyone else with an oil temperature gauge. I learned that the stock pump easily provides 45 pounds plus of pressure when the engine is in good condition - good bearings, etc. I also learned that the entire engine is designed to run at a temperature of 190F - standard in-fan-housing cooler installed (I've never run the dog-house cooler). Even when I added 87mm and later added 88mm cylinders the oil temperature ran consistently at 190F. I could force it up over 200F by keeping the pedal on the floor up long hills but as soon the car started down the other side the temperature would come right down. Later on I added a 110 cam and 90.5mm cylinders - it still liked to run at 190F but was more easily forced above 200F. I'm back into VWs again after about 10 years - I'll be building up an 87mm engine with the 110 cam and a full balancing - and will be installing oil temperature and oil pressure gauges. I'll be running a 1/4 line for the pressure gauge and drilling a hole in back lower edge of the case for the temperature sensor - I'll try to provide pics.