Make my car stop!

[Piledriver]

Many places sell spindles for discs, and someone probably makes adapters (caliper mounts) most are of the drop spindle variety, typically 2" or so.

The reason I was asking, is becuase my car came with cb dropped drum spindles when I bought it, and I didnt really wanna shell out the money for a different set of spindles. If I make a bracket, do you suggest its forged or welded? Now as far as the back brakes, what do I have to strip from a type 3, just shoes and drums?

From the stub axle out, including the backing plate.
(take a 36mm socket and huge breaker bar for the rear axle, welded on socket to a 1/2"x1 1/2" steel stock works good...)

The T3 drums are "modern" style and the drums are separate from the hubs.

[sunnydude98]

what about the fronts? do they make a bracket, or should I make one?

[bugninva]

If you can lock all 4, you have plenty of brakes.

this is the most overstated, incorrect information in *every* brake thread that is started...if you can lock all four, that means you can lock all four....it does *not* mean you have good brakes...better brakes stop you better *without* locking. that is the idea of an "upgrade"...

[Piledriver]

Perhaps there is a reason folks make that statement regularly.

How, exactly, do bigger brakes magically increase the adhesion of the tires?

Please explain the physics for us all.

One of the most critical things when doing a brake upgrade is that all 4 MUST LOCK AT THE SAME TIME, or very damn close.

A LOT of folks miss that little detail, by miles. It requires testing, and possibly engineering/additional parts to get right.

Getting it wrong WILL result in a accident, or at the very least soiled shorts, as finding yourself going backwards down the hill at 70MPH sucks, even worse than plowing right through the corner if the front end locks up first.

It's very easy for folks bolting on parts to end up with less usable stopping power than stock.

Note that stopping power does not equal fade resistance.
Improving fade resistance about the ONLY valid reason for an "upgrade" in 99% of cases, and in the vast majority of cases, better pad/shoe material and decent brake fluid/maintenance would be more appropriate than hanging 11" rotor//4 piston discs up front with 145R15s...(You know you've seen it)

I very frequently see brake setups that are bordering on or are actually dangerous due to imbalance... You do NOT need HUGE brakes to stop a 1800 lb car, regardless of how much motor it has. You need GOOD brakes.

(if you are going 100++ MPH in a Bug without a wing, you are giving God the finger, from an aerodynamic standpoint )

Looks cool is fine for bling, but that's ALL a lot of "big" brake setups are.

I venture to say that FJCampers brakes see far more (ab)use than any street VW ever would, and he basically has well optimized stock late Ghia brakes.

Please just think about it.

[kdf]

When driving a VW bug with stock brakes for 6 hours of constant endurance type track track driving I could lock the front disc brakes at any time anywhere.

The brakes weren't disturbingly front heavy. but in rain they were so I adjusted the balance with the hand brake while braking.

Tires were Toyo T1-R 195/50 R15.

[Duus]

Kdf how much power did you have in that car?

[FJCamper]

My big worry with our '70 Ghia brake system was "balance" between the front and rear hydraulic proportioning.

Our high-end racers, (Porsche 934's and 935's) all had adjustable brake proportioning, of course. Never had much trouble with them. Even some of the garden variety SCCA MG's had twin master cylinders and an adjustable rod between them to redistribute front/rear force.

But when I put a common brake proportioning valve on our IMSA Herbie in 1975-6, it started creating brake lockup. When I took it off, things went back to normal -- good brakes.

This experience soured me on these add-on valves, and I won't use one again unless there is no other fix. So, no valve on the Ghia(s).

Our '70 Ghia runs 175x15 Avon "racing radials" on 5.5" rims. Tire size, mainly the rubber patch that actually touches the road, is a big factor in brake efficency. The more contact, the quicker the car can stop, if the mechanical brakes are up to the load.

VW did their homework on brake proportioning in the stock disk-drum master cylinder. Our tire size is apparently close enough to stock not to fool the proportioning.

One reason for no rubber pads on a brake (or clutch) pedal is so the driver can directly "feel" all the feedback, and modulate the pedal pressure. Brake lockup or skids are just not one of the problems we have on the track.

[bugninva]

multiple post.

[bugninva]

multiple post.

[bugninva]

Perhaps there is a reason folks make that statement regularly.

How, exactly, do bigger brakes magically increase the adhesion of the tires?

Please explain the physics for us all.

i snipped the biggest part of your diatribe... adhesion of the tires is only one element of a good braking system...as has been pointed out time and time again the stock beetle(any year) drum brakes can lock the tires up...overcoming the tires ability to maintain grip does not make an efficient braking system....period... better brakes(usually larger) are better at the part that the brakes do(here's your physics lesson), shed heat.... making it simple, the brakes turn motion into heat through friction, and the more efficient they are at shedding that heat the better the stoping ability. this is also why a simple brake material change can make much better braking(even though the old ones would "lock up")

if "locking" them up is the determining factor of whether the brakes are "good" or not why would everyone want to upgrade to the better disc brakes that VW put on beetles in every other market?

[Piledriver]

bugninva, you make good observations, but you missed the point of of what I said.

[bugninva]

bugninva, you make good observations, but you missed the point of of what I said.

actually i didn't....

I'm not new to brakes, but as i pointed out the "they lock" being a measure of good brakes is a major load of poop...

[Bruce2]

I'm not new to brakes, but as i pointed out the "they lock" being a measure of good brakes is a major load of poop...

I have to agree.
The ability to lockup the tires is not an indicator of good brakes.

Recently, I had the opportunity to daily drive a friend's completely stock 65 Beetle. The only mod it had was radial tires instead of the original bias ply tires. What really surprised me was how easy it was to lock up the stock drums. Compared to my Mexican Beetle (with smaller front tires + discs), the 65 didn't stop anywhere near as well.

It is well known that discs do not lock up as readily as drums. The propensity of drums to fade is what makes them vastly inferior.

[Bruce2]

How, exactly, do bigger brakes magically increase the adhesion of the tires?

Please explain the physics for us all.

A drum brake will be able to apply more torque the as soon as you jump on them compared to discs. From that instant forward, heat is being generated at a tremendous rate. Since the friction surface is enclosed inside a drum, that heat does not get transfered to the air, so a drum collects the heat. That heat causes the drum to change shape, reducing the contact area between the drum and the shoes. This is what fading is. A drum brake will fade extremely fast. If you were able to measure the applied torque after 5 seconds of hard braking from high speed, it would be closer to zero than its maximum.

A disc will apply less initial torque, but since it's twin friction surfaces are exposed to cooling air, the rotors reject heat better. Also, since the heat is equal on both sides, the rotor does not warp. The result is that it does not fade near as much. That same 5 seconds later, the disc will be still applying almost as much torque as when it was first applied.

[Piledriver]

I fully comprehend the merits of properly sized and engineered disc brakes.

I was mostly ranting about peoples propensity to cram in the biggest, baddest set of brakes they can lay their hands on, without though, as long as they LOOK good.