I have acquired a Weber Progressive carb and was wondering what all do I have to change out on my '79 Bus to convert it from FI to carb. I have the intake manifolds too.
Jay
Type IV FI conversion
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11895
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
You will probably regret it. That carb will never run as well or make as much HP as the FI. Read around about the progressive. It has inherent issues. Otherwise.....you will need either a stock mechanical fuel pump, or a small low pressure electric one (like a facet pump). You will need to plug the return line. You will needto aquire the center manifold casting that has the carb mount. Get new boots and claps. Plug the injector holes. Other than removing the old injection....thats about all you need......besides a bunch of tuning time. Ray
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metropoj
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:01 am
Why are you dumping the fuel injection ?
I can tell from first hand experience, you'll spend just as much time, most likely more, reading up on the Progressive, tuning, screwing with setup to never get a 100% running carb than learning about your FI ... they just aren't make to run great on a TIV with long intake runners .....
You'd be better off going with duals IF you absolutely must dump the injection.
Make sure you offer the parts up to others and don't throw it out ....
I am running a progressive for now and it's OK, Ray pretty well ran down what has to be used. and don't use a 009 Dist .....
WIth an inexpensive solution comes inexpensive performance ..... it'll do but you'll never be 100% happy .....
I can tell from first hand experience, you'll spend just as much time, most likely more, reading up on the Progressive, tuning, screwing with setup to never get a 100% running carb than learning about your FI ... they just aren't make to run great on a TIV with long intake runners .....
You'd be better off going with duals IF you absolutely must dump the injection.
Make sure you offer the parts up to others and don't throw it out ....
I am running a progressive for now and it's OK, Ray pretty well ran down what has to be used. and don't use a 009 Dist .....
WIth an inexpensive solution comes inexpensive performance ..... it'll do but you'll never be 100% happy .....
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busman70
Don't let the nay-sayers sway you from installing a Weber Progressive. Been watching with interest this post and another that trample the Weber. Yes they can be tough to tune, not to forget that a FI system can also be a chore, along with the replacement cost for FI parts has not gone down a whole lot in the past 24 years since your bus was created.
I have been running and installing Weber DFEV's on every VW bus that passes through my grubby fingers for over ten years now. Tried the duals, got nothing against them except they are no easier to tune. You could fill a large crate or dumpster with all the FI systems I have stripped off engines over the years.
Now in all the posts about Weber DFEV's there are comments about Main Jets, Idle Jets and Air Jets, but no mention about the Emulsion Tubes. It is a funny little thing that fits under the Air Jet. Just like all the jets, there is a Primary and a Secondary and it needs the same kind of attention given to the jets. While you are figuring out which combo of Main and Air Jets your engine needs then you "MUST" also change the Emulsion Tube to match the flow of air through the Air Jet. Period. A lot of so called "experts" that rag on the DFEV's really don't know how to tune one or have just given up, driven off into the sun set mumbling "this is as good as it gets".
One other little tid bit. If your bus still has the original front rubber floor mat you will find that it interferes with the accelerator going all the way down which will prevent the secondary throttle from opening completely. Haven't run across one yet that doesn't, all the mat needs is a little trim behind the pedal with a good sharp razor blade. This also helps some of the dual carb setups.
Oh yea, I also run 009 distributors, no problems either. Keep the advance at idle around 8 degrees +/-.
I have been running and installing Weber DFEV's on every VW bus that passes through my grubby fingers for over ten years now. Tried the duals, got nothing against them except they are no easier to tune. You could fill a large crate or dumpster with all the FI systems I have stripped off engines over the years.
Now in all the posts about Weber DFEV's there are comments about Main Jets, Idle Jets and Air Jets, but no mention about the Emulsion Tubes. It is a funny little thing that fits under the Air Jet. Just like all the jets, there is a Primary and a Secondary and it needs the same kind of attention given to the jets. While you are figuring out which combo of Main and Air Jets your engine needs then you "MUST" also change the Emulsion Tube to match the flow of air through the Air Jet. Period. A lot of so called "experts" that rag on the DFEV's really don't know how to tune one or have just given up, driven off into the sun set mumbling "this is as good as it gets".
One other little tid bit. If your bus still has the original front rubber floor mat you will find that it interferes with the accelerator going all the way down which will prevent the secondary throttle from opening completely. Haven't run across one yet that doesn't, all the mat needs is a little trim behind the pedal with a good sharp razor blade. This also helps some of the dual carb setups.
Oh yea, I also run 009 distributors, no problems either. Keep the advance at idle around 8 degrees +/-.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11895
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Yep, if you work hard enough at it...you can tune these carbs. The fact is, they will produce no more HP...and usually less the twin carbs. Type 4's generally run crappy with a 009. And it has nothing to do with anyones ability to "tune". Its the wrong advance curve. That is...unless you do some serious work inside with weights and springs. At that point....and considering the notoriously worn out condition of 90% of the 009's floating around out there...not to mention the utter trashiness of new ones....it would be simpler to go with a SVDA stock 025...which has pretty much in most peoples hands, been proven on type 4 to be a better dizzy for this engine. Thats why these engines came with them....and not a 009. On top of that...the injection is actually simple. 23 wires and 4 sensors???? Its more dependable than dual carbs by far. Less adjustment. The injection Puts out better HP than ANY carb on the same engine....and has throttle response that cannot be beat by anything short of dells.....with a better than stock cam.
I guess the superiority of carbs is why all the manufacturers are using them for doorstops now.
....but hey....thats just my opinion. Do some reading. Yes....a lot of people can get the prog to run well. I've done it before. Yes I have made them run smoothly....but the fact remains, the prog. put out less power and got lousey gas milage IN COMPARISON to injection. Ray
I guess the superiority of carbs is why all the manufacturers are using them for doorstops now.
....but hey....thats just my opinion. Do some reading. Yes....a lot of people can get the prog to run well. I've done it before. Yes I have made them run smoothly....but the fact remains, the prog. put out less power and got lousey gas milage IN COMPARISON to injection. Ray-
BluBus
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:46 pm
This is for busman70
I have a Weber progressive on my 1700 T4 in my 74 Rivera and I rejetted it. it runs good with my SVDA but at full throttle it bucks a bit. Here is my jet config
Primary Idle 6.5(small ventri)
Primary Main 140
Primary Air 165
Primary ETube F6
Secondary Idle 5.7 (large ventri) Aircooled.net sold me this odd size
Secondary Main 145
Secondary Air 170
Secondary ETube F6
Does this look like a good setup I have F50 ETubes I have tried them and they seem better. What do you think? I have a bunch of jets and have been experimenting I just need some guidance Should the bigger jets go in the primary or the secondary and I need ETube advice.
Thanks Patrick Gillis
I have a Weber progressive on my 1700 T4 in my 74 Rivera and I rejetted it. it runs good with my SVDA but at full throttle it bucks a bit. Here is my jet config
Primary Idle 6.5(small ventri)
Primary Main 140
Primary Air 165
Primary ETube F6
Secondary Idle 5.7 (large ventri) Aircooled.net sold me this odd size
Secondary Main 145
Secondary Air 170
Secondary ETube F6
Does this look like a good setup I have F50 ETubes I have tried them and they seem better. What do you think? I have a bunch of jets and have been experimenting I just need some guidance Should the bigger jets go in the primary or the secondary and I need ETube advice.
Thanks Patrick Gillis
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Karl E Bower
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 3:20 am
hey MEZ
I have a computer from a 78 if you are interested e-mail me at [email protected]
I have a computer from a 78 if you are interested e-mail me at [email protected]
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11895
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Kerian....you never did tell anyone what exactly is happening with your injection, or if you have a complete system. Let us know here or on the Fuel injection forum. We can most likely help you fix it. The parts expense people speak of is generally not true unless people have been cutting wires, or a lot of the parts of the injection were lost on a motor change, or you had a fire or something. Its exceedingly rare to find a bad computer. I have found one in 25 years. CHT is about $30. The MAF is not cheap...but lasts a very long time unless abused....and are available in junkyards. The throttle position senors rarely go out. Lost od distributors available...and since its L-jet...you can use awide range of dizzys. Fuel pump can come from most anything L-jet. Injectors are common. Most of this is simple to test. Please ask us...before you throw away your nicest option for your engine. We can help. Ray
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Vgonman
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:01 am
I have found that 95% of all that swap the FI for carbs have simply not taken the time to learn the FI system. ON ebay all the time are the dealer training manuals dirt cheap for these, that walk you through everything! A real piece of cake. 6 years ago i knew nothing on FI, and now the local vw shop calls me up and subs out all his FI work to me. Prior to that the shop merely swapped a customer to carbs, and put all the parts in the dumster. Great guy runs the shop, just set in his ways.
As to the Weber progressive, I have seen one in the last ten years actually dialed in. Now, you fellows that have jetted them are way ahead of 99.9% of folks out there. Most folks bolt them on and go............think they are great cause van runs, but then they are always burning up heads and or fouling plugs cause they never get it to run right. And hey, for the novice they are a pain in the ass to tune, and you have to have a lot of jets availiable to really dial it in.
Too bad the poster does not live near me.I bet I could have hsi car running on FI in no time. 95% of the time (from what i have seen) FI stops working on a stood up van because of a ton of cracked vacuum lines, or a frozen fuel pump. Switch all you r hoses and fuel lines out and turn the key. You might be surprised. Don't blame the injection, blame the lack of maintenance on the car before you got it.
As to the Weber progressive, I have seen one in the last ten years actually dialed in. Now, you fellows that have jetted them are way ahead of 99.9% of folks out there. Most folks bolt them on and go............think they are great cause van runs, but then they are always burning up heads and or fouling plugs cause they never get it to run right. And hey, for the novice they are a pain in the ass to tune, and you have to have a lot of jets availiable to really dial it in.
Too bad the poster does not live near me.I bet I could have hsi car running on FI in no time. 95% of the time (from what i have seen) FI stops working on a stood up van because of a ton of cracked vacuum lines, or a frozen fuel pump. Switch all you r hoses and fuel lines out and turn the key. You might be surprised. Don't blame the injection, blame the lack of maintenance on the car before you got it.
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busman70
Hi Patrick,
Your bucking is a lean condition. The F5's work better for me than the F6's. In fact I have been playing with F50's on one of my buses, results not in yet. Your Air Jet is pretty close, you may have to go up or down one on each after changing to F5's. As for the mains, increase the primary to 150 to 160 and the secondary 155 to 170. Yes I realize it is a broad band to play with but changing them is an easy job. Whatever you do keep a written record of what you take out and what you put in and notes on how the vehicle ran. As for the idle jets, the best test is you have good tach adjustment with out fuel being drawn through the main circuit.
Patrick there is no absolute answer to what combination will work. Depending on the size of your engine, hydrualic or solid cam, compression and altitude you live at will determine the correct combination. Yor libray should have several books on Webers, Bob Tomlinson's, Pat Brandons and Haynes all have information, which is worth reading.
For all else, I have nothing against FI Systems, worked on FIS since VW first put them on Type 3's. Got nothing against dual carbs, installed lots of them, even have a little 1.7L domed piston engine out of a 914 sitting on the floor with a set of 34ICT's. I will more than agree that a factory setting on Progressive Webers is way to lean, and lean means heat and no vw likes heat. Personally I run a tad on the rich side, never fouled a plug, get great gas milage. Oh yea, no points in my distributor, Petronix ignition system, and I have nothing against the other brands either. I do play with the springs in the 009. Course I also carry all the parts required in the little tool bag in case the electronic system craps out. Now just for fun, pull the distributor drive out of the stock bus distributor along with the weights and springs, do a little swapping around and check out what it does to a 009.
In the hundreds of VW's that have passed through my hands over the years each one has been an adventure. Oh yea, I do VW's as a hobby only.
Busman70
Your bucking is a lean condition. The F5's work better for me than the F6's. In fact I have been playing with F50's on one of my buses, results not in yet. Your Air Jet is pretty close, you may have to go up or down one on each after changing to F5's. As for the mains, increase the primary to 150 to 160 and the secondary 155 to 170. Yes I realize it is a broad band to play with but changing them is an easy job. Whatever you do keep a written record of what you take out and what you put in and notes on how the vehicle ran. As for the idle jets, the best test is you have good tach adjustment with out fuel being drawn through the main circuit.
Patrick there is no absolute answer to what combination will work. Depending on the size of your engine, hydrualic or solid cam, compression and altitude you live at will determine the correct combination. Yor libray should have several books on Webers, Bob Tomlinson's, Pat Brandons and Haynes all have information, which is worth reading.
For all else, I have nothing against FI Systems, worked on FIS since VW first put them on Type 3's. Got nothing against dual carbs, installed lots of them, even have a little 1.7L domed piston engine out of a 914 sitting on the floor with a set of 34ICT's. I will more than agree that a factory setting on Progressive Webers is way to lean, and lean means heat and no vw likes heat. Personally I run a tad on the rich side, never fouled a plug, get great gas milage. Oh yea, no points in my distributor, Petronix ignition system, and I have nothing against the other brands either. I do play with the springs in the 009. Course I also carry all the parts required in the little tool bag in case the electronic system craps out. Now just for fun, pull the distributor drive out of the stock bus distributor along with the weights and springs, do a little swapping around and check out what it does to a 009.
In the hundreds of VW's that have passed through my hands over the years each one has been an adventure. Oh yea, I do VW's as a hobby only.
Busman70
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11895
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Hee hee...I run pertronix too. I think they are about the same internally as compufire...but the brackets seem a little nicer fit on the pertronix kit for the stock type 4 dizzzy. I think we all carry points and condensor and rotor in a bag in the car. Its hilarious...never had a failure with either pertronixor compufire...but I know the day I take that bag out of the glove box....I will be walking! Karma? Kismet? superstition? Not sure....but I'm prepared! Ray
Ray-
Volcano
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2002 12:01 am
Progressive
I have been newly blessed with the progressive.Bus runs better than I thought possable.It could use the choke though.It's the electric one.I just don't know where the electrical goes.I am working with all three systems of induction.With the help of this forum I would stay with the FI.Go through the Bently steps from A to B.Ray and Regis helped me get the FI running great.I even got my nose into the forbidden air flow meter.L-Jet is not that complicated.In my case I found a bad resistor in the four pack. Just little things.Best,Roger