30mm oil pumps - how to use

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Dean...
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30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:40 am

Hey!

I just finished rebuilding the top end of my 1916 Beetle and while doing so I replaced the oil pump with a CB Performance 30mm pump. I've now finished cleaning my driveway after blowing 2 consecutive filters. I use 15/40 oil.

Obviously I need to do something about this. I was wondering what others have done when they have used a pump this size... Do others use a bypass adaptor on their remote oil filter so the extra oil goes into the sump? Do others just use even thinner oil?

Keen to hear what others have done to ensure their external filters remain intact ImageImage

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Bruce2
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Bruce2 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:57 pm

The problem is the tar you're using for oil.
5W-30 will fix this.

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Chip Birks
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:25 pm

I use Mobile 1 0w-40. I see 80-90 psi on startup. I also use PurolatorONE oil filters. I had one O-ring pop out of the top creating a huge spill, but i popped the ring back in and it sealed back up with no problems.

Dean...
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:12 am

Where do you guys live? I'm in Australia and there are many people here, including very reputable VW engine builders and racers who use 20/50.

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Dean...
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:43 am

I bought these two oils today, and a good quality filter. I'm pretty sure that the oil I first ran after rebuilding the top end when I also installed the 30mm pump was the 5/40, but I'm not 100 percent sure. The 5/40 has a little more zinc then the other. ImageImage

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Dean...
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:44 am

I just need to decide which oil to use

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Chip Birks
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:55 am

The oil I use is what Porsche runs in their stuff. I figure if its good enough for them...
I'm in the USA.

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ps2375
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by ps2375 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:54 am

I would use the thinnest oil you can and still maintain the target oil pressure you want. I wouldn't think that you'd need a larger pump unless you have some wear issues in the motor. You don't mention if you have any of the "Hoover mods" done which I believe allow for extra oil flow to certain places for extra cooling and lubrication.

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FJCamper
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by FJCamper » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:04 pm

Yes, 30mm pumps, 40 wt oil, and cool, not even cold, weather can blow standard canister filters.

The exception is the heavy-cased Fram HP-1. They can explode, but it takes more to do it. Be aware the HP-1 is a "racing" filter and has less folds and pleats of the filtration material inside and does not filter as well as most other filters. Fram sacrificed filtration over flow.

The Porsche 356's used gears up to 36mm and got away with it because the filter was only a partial flow, and was a replaceable cartridge inside a very strong steel housing. Also, the 356 oil galleries were larger than the VW's. The VW oil system was not originally designed for high RPM's.

The VW/Porsche oil system design philosophy was "high volume, low pressure." This is why 356 Porsches, sports cars that they were, had no oil pressure gauges, an item most everyone in the sports car circles considered essential.

An unmodified VW case, meaning no changes to the oil passages or galleries, usually requires no more than a 26mm pump. You might consider a 30mm pump if you're pushing oil through an external filter, and the cooler is in the nose ... but a 26mm will usually do that just fine as well.

Yes, there are people who run 30mm and larger pumps and somehow get by with it, but they have the majority of overheating and leak problems.

A 26mm pump and 10w-30 oil should make your life easier. But even so, keep the revs down on cold days as you warm up the engine. Even a 26mm pump can blow a steel-cased oil filter.

FJC

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sideshow
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by sideshow » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:54 am

All I have ever used is the system-1 tall/shorts, the insides of low end filters like Frams have been know to escape in little wads.

This also works http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=5_125_2740 by moving the over pressure at the gear back into the inlet.

Any truth to the rumor that enlarging the flywheel side bleed hole (where the plunger is) is a valid fix?
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

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Marc
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Marc » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:25 pm

FJCamper wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:04 pm
...The exception is the heavy-cased Fram HP-1....
I've had good results using standard filters from MANN, Bosch, etc. designed for Diesel-Rabbit applications too, without sacrificing filtration efficacy.

The flywheel-end relief valve in a dual-relief case is there to protect the cooler by dumping back to the sump at ~65psi. But the drilling which the relieved oil needs to pass through is too small to handle "thick" oil fast enough. Without enlarging that hole one must be cautious about revving a cool engine, especially if the stock cooler's still in the system. Even if the cooler doesn't rupture it can "balloon" under overpressure, closing off the air passageways - it'll still look normal to the casual eye.

I agree with Frank, only rarely should one ever need a pump any bigger than 26mm. Usually the concern is low pressure at hot idle, not at higher RPM, and a bigger pump is of no use there. In most cases (pun intended) a "blueprinted" 26mm pump with minimal gear endplay does the job just fine.

Since the stock pressure-control system reacts to pressure rather than temperature, excess pressure results in the cooler bypass passage remaining open (or partially open) even after the engine's warmed up so not all the oil has to go through the cooler. You end up wasting horsepower by putting heat into the oil at the pump as well as inhibiting the full use of the cooler...and wondering why your oil temp's so high even though the pressure looks ample. Changing the plumbing around to accommodate a thermostatically-controlled bypass valve only addresses the latter problem while introducing a potential point of failure; to ensure that the cooler's fully-utilized the pump-end relief valve spring pressure needs to be increased. IMO the stock system works well enough in most applications with the right combination of pump size and oil viscosity. "K.I.S.S."

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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:03 pm

Thanks for everyone's replies to my question!

Since the issue occurred, I've changed the oil pump to a 26mm one. I haven't changed the oil yet as this engine has ran with 20/60 with no issues.

Anyways, I put in the new pump, packed it a bit with petroleum jelly and turned the engine over until I had oil coming out of where the oil pressure switch screws into. Then I tried to start it..... The engine tried to start a few times, and I checked the filter and it was all good. I got it running, and the filter then proceeded to swell and leak everywhere! I'm using a good quality Ryco filter.

Before I screwed on the filter, I filled it with oil, but I can't see that this would be the cause of this as I've always done that, and besides that is what is usually like when you first start the engine.

If I connected the hoses the wrong way around on the pump, could it be causing this? I'm pretty confident that they are correct, but I can't check right now because it's raining...

When I pulled the engine apart and took off the hoses from the original old pump I accident kinked one of the hoses a little. It is pretty straight, but not completely. I took it to a hydraulic place and they said if it was going to be an issue it would blow straight away which it hasn't done, but I'm wondering if the inside diameter is now a little too small... This hose is the one that returns to the pump.

I was going to check the oil pressure and relief valves, but I did check them not long ago and they were fine.

At least while I'm trying to figure this out I'm doing my bit for the Australian economy while going through all these oil filters lol

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Dean...
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:18 pm

Can someone confirm something for me.... The way the oil system is setup on my car, with the plate over the pump which sends oil to the oil filter and back, does that mean that the oil would flow this circuit ALL THE TIME? Or is it still affected by valves in the engine?

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Chip Birks
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:16 pm

It will flow through it all the time.

Dean...
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Re: 30mm oil pumps - how to use

Post by Dean... » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:55 pm

Thanks, so I reckon the issue is the kink I made in the oil line.

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