2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

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vwfreakster
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2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by vwfreakster » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:33 am

Hi all , I call on your infinite wisdom for some thoughts on what could be happening with my setup!

Engine spec: 2276cc 7.9:1
DPR Wegdemate crank and flywheel
All race spec balanced
Mahle dished 94mm B&P's
Webcam 86B with 112 lobes
Lube a lobe followers
Comp Elim heads 48x38, not ported.
Forged 1.4:1 Rocker Arms
Manton Cromo tapered pushrods
CB manifolds and 48mm TB's
38mm CB wastegate (soon to be upgraded)
30mm Bailey BOV
EMS Stinger 4 ECU and Mag pickup Ign
RC 65lbs injectors balanced
Bosch 4 wire lambda sensor
CB head temp and air temp sensors
No charge cooler
Precision T3/T4 .63 A/R hot .60 A/R cold
Meth/water injection fitted (not used at the rolling road as we ran out of time!)
98 Octane gas

Having returned from the rolling road with some disappointing figures and some odd settings within the ign table, I'm looking for clues as to why the setup isn't performing. Bare with me as this is my first turbo build and I'm still getting used to the ECU, I've put a lot of carbed motors together. So to sum up, the rolling road had to drop the Ign timing down as the motor was pinking, but they dropped it down to figures that don't really make sense to me. At 3500 rpm and 75Kpa, (turbo spooling up) to avoid pinking they went down to 7.8 degrees (plus there's compensation for boost in the software of 15%) this improves after 4000 rpm but still only gets to 20 degrees.

The BHP flat lined at 6000 rpm with 186bhp at the flywheel. I didn't make a note of the air temp, oil and head temps were good considering they're Eliminators.

I've attach a pic of the fuel map as well, really appreciate your views, thanks all.

Link to my page as Photobucket are cunts!
http://jonnys-speedandcustom.co.uk/#/pi ... 4594036790
Last edited by vwfreakster on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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rubenski
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by rubenski » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm

Does the dynoshop you took it have experience with tuning turbo acvw?

Can you tune it yourself?
Better to be blown than to suck!

Clonebug
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by Clonebug » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 pm

Did you confirm that your ignition advance is correct when comparing the computer to the crank pulley???
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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vwfreakster
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by vwfreakster » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:00 pm

rubenski wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm
Does the dynoshop you took it have experience with tuning turbo acvw?

Can you tune it yourself?
Hi, no, he's a clever guy but no experience with VW's, I could have a go but it would mean putting it on the road. I have considered that!

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vwfreakster
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by vwfreakster » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:07 pm

Clonebug wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 pm
Did you confirm that your ignition advance is correct when comparing the computer to the crank pulley???
Hi, I was originally running a VW Speedshop setup but we could get it run smoothly and VW Speedshop doesn't support it anymore so he ended up making a new trigger wheel and fitting a Lucas pickup, he dialed in TDC etc. I don't know if he checked the advance against the pulley.
Cheers

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falcor
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by falcor » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:05 pm

Lock the ignition to Zero and verify with a timing light that you are getting zero on the crank when the computer thinks its at zero,

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vwfreakster
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by vwfreakster » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:48 am

falcor wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:05 pm
Lock the ignition to Zero and verify with a timing light that you are getting zero on the crank when the computer thinks its at zero,
Ok I'll check, thank you .

Ma77hew
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by Ma77hew » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:42 am

I had the same problem with a similar setup, water injection helped a little (in the intake and the cooling fan) but I could never get it to not detonate even with a 6.9 :1 compression ratio.

I'm now Subaru ej20, single overhead cam, non turbo and it is quicker than my aircooled 2.2l FI turbo setup. No detonation and a fantastic heater/demister.

I do love aircooled and if I cant sell my setup I will try again (maybe in a beach/baja buggy)but only with a very large intercooler to go with a very large oil cooler.

Don't forget the 'mad power' people seem to achieve is not on 'pump gas' and is for <12 seconds at a time. Driving on a motorway at high load for hours at a time and being able to fill up at any petrol station is a much more difficult goal to achieve.

Clonebug
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by Clonebug » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:59 am

Timing in the single digits to me points to something not set up correctly. If you are crank trigger fired and/or controlled by the ECU you need to go through the setup steps to make absolutely sure the ECU is seeing the same advance as what you see on the pulley with a timing light. I know that Megasquirt has a software adjustment that allows you to adjust the ECU to make up for a couple degrees of offset. Your ECU should have the same thing or else you need to verify that the sensor is positioned correctly.
If you can't adjust it in software then you need to adjust the sensor or move the trigger wheel to fix it.

Once that is verified you can then tune it.
In my experience of running high boost for 6 years you will need a way to cool the intake temps. If you have an ambient intake temp of 80 degrees before the turbo you will have 150 degrees at 8 lbs. boost. You will need to retard the timing to 24 degrees or less to stop detonation.
At 15 lbs boosted, air temps will be 198 degrees coming out of the turbo...... :shock:

If you want to run the 22 lbs boost like I am you will have boosted temps of 240 degrees without some way of cooling the air.

At 100 degree ambient cruise temps which is not unusual in the summer I can keep my boosted intake temps down to 170 degrees at 22 lbs boost. They would be at 265 degrees without it. That is almost a 100 degree drop using a 50/50 mix of water/alcohol.
I still have to keep my ignition advance down to 18-19 degrees at that level. I am also injecting 3.0 gph of water/alcohol at that level.
In the cooler fall and spring my boosted IAT's are below 140 degrees.

Water Injection is critical at anything after 6-8 lbs to combat detonation unless you want timing way down.
Water/Alcohol injection is a very effective way of cooling intake temps if you set it up correctly.

My Water injection system is in my build if you want to look it up.

Here is a boosted air temp calculator........

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

Here is a list of a bunch of relevant calculators for a turbo aficionado's use........some are for a Harley but look closely....there is some good info there.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm

In fact, I suggest reading the whole website.....there is tons of good info there and these guys are pretty serious about their racing and related business.....

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/

I have no experience with your ECU or for that matter any ECU except MS and Tunerstudio but I question why one map shows negative and positive kpa with 100 kpa referenced as 0.0 kpa and the other map shows the more common 0.0 kpa as complete vacuum and 100 kpa as atmospheric pressure or wide open throttle and no boost.

My fuel and ignition maps run from 20 kpa to 265 kpa from bottom to top. Your maps would be confusing with the center being the way it is on one and the other being more normal.......
Maybe your ignition map isn't set up correctly.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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vwfreakster
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by vwfreakster » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:46 am

falcor wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:05 pm
Lock the ignition to Zero and verify with a timing light that you are getting zero on the crank when the computer thinks its at zero,
Yes this is was done at the rolling road, when the VW SpeedShop setup was junked! I've just double checked.

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vwfreakster
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by vwfreakster » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:55 am

Clonebug wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:59 am
Timing in the single digits to me points to something not set up correctly. If you are crank trigger fired and/or controlled by the ECU you need to go through the setup steps to make absolutely sure the ECU is seeing the same advance as what you see on the pulley with a timing light. I know that Megasquirt has a software adjustment that allows you to adjust the ECU to make up for a couple degrees of offset. Your ECU should have the same thing or else you need to verify that the sensor is positioned correctly.
If you can't adjust it in software then you need to adjust the sensor or move the trigger wheel to fix it.

Once that is verified you can then tune it.
In my experience of running high boost for 6 years you will need a way to cool the intake temps. If you have an ambient intake temp of 80 degrees before the turbo you will have 150 degrees at 8 lbs. boost. You will need to retard the timing to 24 degrees or less to stop detonation.
At 15 lbs boosted, air temps will be 198 degrees coming out of the turbo...... :shock:

If you want to run the 22 lbs boost like I am you will have boosted temps of 240 degrees without some way of cooling the air.

At 100 degree ambient cruise temps which is not unusual in the summer I can keep my boosted intake temps down to 170 degrees at 22 lbs boost. They would be at 265 degrees without it. That is almost a 100 degree drop using a 50/50 mix of water/alcohol.
I still have to keep my ignition advance down to 18-19 degrees at that level. I am also injecting 3.0 gph of water/alcohol at that level.
In the cooler fall and spring my boosted IAT's are below 140 degrees.

Water Injection is critical at anything after 6-8 lbs to combat detonation unless you want timing way down.
Water/Alcohol injection is a very effective way of cooling intake temps if you set it up correctly.

My Water injection system is in my build if you want to look it up.

Here is a boosted air temp calculator........

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

Here is a list of a bunch of relevant calculators for a turbo aficionado's use........some are for a Harley but look closely....there is some good info there.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm

In fact, I suggest reading the whole website.....there is tons of good info there and these guys are pretty serious about their racing and related business.....

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/

I have no experience with your ECU or for that matter any ECU except MS and Tunerstudio but I question why one map shows negative and positive kpa with 100 kpa referenced as 0.0 kpa and the other map shows the more common 0.0 kpa as complete vacuum and 100 kpa as atmospheric pressure or wide open throttle and no boost.

My fuel and ignition maps run from 20 kpa to 265 kpa from bottom to top. Your maps would be confusing with the center being the way it is on one and the other being more normal.......
Maybe your ignition map isn't set up correctly.
Thank you Clone bug, I have feeling that you're right in that it's either ign or charge temp, I have water meth fitted but we ran out of time on the rollers and the tuner seemed reluctant to try it! so I think I need to get the car out turn on the Water/meth and drive it. I'll check the position of the sensor as that was moved from the original setup and yes the EMS software takes a little getting used to!

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petew
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by petew » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:55 pm

I'm struggling to understand why you're having issues like this on 98oct fuel. I reckon there's something wrong with the tune like CB has suggested. If you're able to post some pics of your ignition advance table and maybe your fuel and AFR tables, it might help us help you more.

Also, some pics of the motor and setup would be helpful too.

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falcor
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by falcor » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:00 am

After looking at the pictures of your fuel and ign maps I agree with Clonebug. I also have no experience with your type of ECU but you need to check if your Y-axis on the maps are correctly setup. I've never seen an ECU that uses different scaling on the axis for the different maps.

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4agedub
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Re: 2276cc FI Turbo not making power. EMS ECU

Post by 4agedub » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:13 am

Two questions...
Why dished pistons and why such low compression? I have found that running too low compression stuffs up the efficiency of the engine and generates heat. I would rather go higher compression and less boost if your fuel quality is an issue. Also the dished pistons might mess around with the combustion chamber squish which will also induce detonation.
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