CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

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Steve Arndt
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Steve Arndt » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:07 pm

I ran an electric valve on my accusump. The solenoid valve would stick sometimes. Not something I would trust.

I wouldn't trust remembering a manual valve either.

That leaves mounting the tank low at sump level which is tough in a street car, or chancing it with a 1 way check valve and the tank up high.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by owdlvr » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:38 pm

I wouldn't trust remembering a manual valve either.
I bought on ebay one of those "remove before flight" flags. I simply loop it around the steering wheel when the valve is closed, and clip it to my ignition key when the valve is open. Very simple visual reference, as I'm not going to start/drive the car with a red loop on the steering wheel, and I don't walk away from the car with the flag on my key ring.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:00 pm

Guys, a little more input, there is much miss naming of D/S pump and system nomenclature, the CB dry sump pump is single stage, only the 'extra' added stages are counted, two stacked scavenge stages and their ports are two stage pumps, auto craft, Bugpack, and ARPM are the most common, these require the small D/S pulley and modified exhaust clearance. Adding another scavenge stage with 3 ports is three stage, fairly common, then the huge 4 stage pumps, I've seen them with the stock cam drive, I think Autocraft do one, but I can't see how they survive long on that stock type drive tang, these are best remote mounted and belt driven.
The small DS pulley is not a problem, assuming D/S is used because the engine is very hypo and revs to at least 7000 RPM, the small pulley scores by helping the belt stay on and the fan alive, assuming it's a T1 fan, and Porsche fans need slowing anyway on many motors, I chose a D.S pulley for my wet sump race 1600 with 30 hp fan, purely for HP gain and keeping the belt on, the extra oil temp demanded big oil coolers, series control specs were a wet sump and melling oil pump.
I see talk of BMD systems, we've lost another one at the APEX weekend recently, seized and resulting grief, he had to revert to a vee belt to finish the day, use one on the street if you like, but buy two complete set ups..hope that clarifies things, regards BBB.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Devastator » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:05 pm

buildabiggerboxer wrote:Guys, a little more input, there is much miss naming of D/S pump and system nomenclature, the CB dry sump pump is single stage, only the 'extra' added stages are counted, two stacked scavenge stages and their ports are two stage pumps, auto craft, Bugpack, and ARPM are the most common, these require the small D/S pulley and modified exhaust clearance.
Does this mean that the CB pump would not work alone for a dry sump? Would I need another pump as well?
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Piledriver » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:28 pm

The CB pump is a real dry sump pump with a (1) 26mm scavenge and (2) 21mm pressure stage.
The rest is semantics/marketing descriptions, ignore it at this point of the discussion until we are all on the same page.

There is a good argument for running the pressure stage off the cam, and large scavenge stage stacks (usually done more for case vacuum) off a belt, but that's another discussion...

This is even easily doable, just requires a cover with an in and out and plugging the stock style pump ports, no more leakee or air suck to/from the case.

The CB pump is not so large that it needs all that, although a little more scavenge would be handy.
I picked up a used small circle track belt drive DS pump setup for that purpose. (it checks out good)

I'm still highly dubious 3 1/2 main bearings and 8 lifter bores ever really need a 30+mm pressure stage under any circumstances.
If Bob Hoover was correct, 21mm is still several times times the technically required volume.
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Piledriver » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:57 am

Devastator wrote:Thanks Steve. That answered my question.
I believe there is an electric solenoid available that turns on and off with the ignition and can plumbed into the sump.
If you find one (with a large orifice--- needs to be 1/2" or bigger, and preferably also have a position feedback sensor for an interlock) please post up.

IIRC 911s used 18mm line for the sump to pressure stage feed line.
They has a much bigger case volume and scavenge pump, so they could empty the case pretty quickly after sitting, even if the oil levels equalized. (a T4 is pretty good for this, assuming you only run 8-9 quarts in a 12 quart tank (typical, allows for foam to rise and break up)
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Steve Arndt » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:17 am

That is the exact unit I ran with my accusump. It developed leaks and also became stuck in the closed position a time or two after sitting.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Steve Arndt » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:18 am

Another note on the solenoid valves like that. They are not rated for high temperature operation.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:32 pm

Gentlemen,

The drain-back problem with dry sumps is obvious, and the best you can do is align the tank on the same level as the engine oil sump. We actually achieved that on our road racing Super Bug by using a low profile tank placed on the floor beside the driver inside a metal housing.

But 95% of those installing will have to have the oil tank higher.

We also have an engine test stand with a dry sump attached to it, and of course we could make the tank level with the engine sump. But because we have to mount and dismount engines a lot, we did install a shut-off valve in the oil-out line to the engine to minimize leaks. We have to watch the oil valve all the time so as not to crank an engine with the oil circulation turned off.

We've come to the conclusion that instead of tricky solenoid valves, that with the ignition on we need a big warning light triggered off a manual device to tell us the valve handle is in the closed position. We're working on it now.

FJC

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Piledriver » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:20 am

Many pneumatic valve i work with have a plunger extention that simply operates a microswicth... very reliable and commonly done, should be relatively easy to do on a big honking manual valve.

Perhaps a magnet glued in the handle and a reed switch or hall sensor, could also be an ignition kill and trigger an alarm that could say "turn on the oil, dummy" if so desired
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:41 pm

Well, my CB DS pump and pulley came in the mail today --- was looking at all my SS Sheet metal and seeing how I want to make the tank -- -- I'm thinking of a 11" cube design right now mounting it onto the floor behind the passenger seat -- Will have to call my buddy with a Plasma cutter and see if it will cut this into the sizes I need -- one thing I noticed on my ARPM case is that the pressure return is where the pressure relief is -- so will have to ask my engine builder what he did in there -- -- Need to get one of those plates that bolt to the bottom of the sump that have a return line in them for my turbo return since I'm loosing my sump return

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:00 pm

lets see 58 cubic inches = 1 quart OR 1 gallon = 231 CI

So my 11in cube could hold 5.76 gallons full -- so at just over 50% would be 3 gallons -- bad thing about a cube at 50% it will have a lot of splash on corners and braking going on --- will have to put a lot of thought into the baffling for this tank or put in 4 gallons of oil

I'm going to get out my clear plastic line tomorrow and see where the level of the intake into the oil pump would be in relationship to the floor of the pan -- so I can see what the "ideal" level of the oil should be in the tank at rest so that it won't flow back (too much) into the engine
Last edited by Fiatdude on Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:30 pm

@4agedub -- -- What size lines are you using to run to the cooler in the front and where are you running them?????

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by 4agedub » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:00 am

I'm using 3/4" lines from the tank to the engine and from the engine to the cooler and to the tank. The lines run inside the chassis backbone en exit in the middle of the suspension in the front.
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