Oil system Mods

func412 · Post by **func412** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:26 pm

How to modify? I´m going to use 30 mm oil pump, oil jets under pistons, extra oil sump uder the engine and external oil cooler at the front feed by sandwitch adapter and controlled by oil thermostat. I´m also going to use HD oil filter.

There is no way to use full flow oil pump cover, because of the rear hanger bar design of the VW 412. So all I have figured out is to open up the oil passages to and from the oil filter adapter and block off the oil filter adapter pressure valve.

Do you think that this is enough to make it work?

How have you disabled the oil filter adapter pressure valve?

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:00 am

(This at least works, as the great George Clinton once said, "...in the amusement park of my mind...")

Visualize this if you will...

Stock or (better) HP relief piston, UPSIDE DOWN.

4 4-5mm holes drilled thru ~4mm down from the "top" (was the open bottom, now the top)

Oil can now pass through the piston directly to main gallery even when piston is up/seated. Relief function still works at a slightly lower pressure. (HD spring and piston would still likely result in higher than stock pressure)

This would eliminate the pressure drop that makes oil flow through the stock cooler, (so it WILL NOT WORK like stock anymore)

... but the now plugged off cooler boss is a great place to hang perhaps a 3mm aluminum plate with the stock oil cooler clamped on backwards... With a cooler adapter (on cooler) hooked up to your full-flow lines via a real thermostat. (cooler in stock location, airflow wise)

Have a look at my modified CB drysump pump pic in the Corvair fan thread. Should be posting more pics next week in a more or less complete state.

(I'm waiting on the 1/2" Swagelok external relief valve and need to order some ARP case through bolts from Jake tomorrow)

If you could use a late 914 crossbar and mounts on your 411...

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:44 pm

Did that scare everyone off????

func412 · Post by **func412** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:23 am

I hope not =)

Should I do something to main oil pressure relief valve to get oil pressure higher? I mean, those squirters might not work with too low oil pressure.

I have thought, that they´ll need enough volume and enough pressure to work properly. The original size oil filter adapter lines might be a "bottle neck" what comes to the volume.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:42 pm

func412 wrote:I hope not =)

Should I do something to main oil pressure relief valve to get oil pressure higher? I mean, those squirters might not work with too low oil pressure.

I have thought, that they´ll need enough volume and enough pressure to work properly. The original size oil filter adapter lines might be a "bottle neck" what comes to the volume.

If you keep line length small, sizes large, and eliminate all possible restrictions (sharp 90 degree turns etc) , you will have more potential flow at the bearings, which is the goal.

The squirters should have built-in check valves that don't open until ~15 PSI at least.

I'm limited to notching the BE of the rods like stock with a 21mm pressure stage.

With a 30mm pump, you should have no issues.

OK, just had Another weird idea: (not req'd for dry sump)

A _tiny_ fixed pressure relief drilling(s?) in the circuit
(in the pump body?) could allow air to escape faster in the eventuality you suck air on hard cornering... right now it has to go thru the relief or bearings once the pressure recovers.

Thnking about it, the stock setup would probably purge air out #3/4 main/#2 rod bearing part of the circuit, as it is the highest point.

Ideally you would have a small low pressure (few PSI) relief valve on the OUTPUT of the pump right after the drilling to FORCE air out and keep it out of the system. This check valve would have to be fairly large though, perhaps the 1/2" piston unit I have from Swagelok.

Is the 411 rear mount like a Bay mount setup?

func412 · Post by **func412** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:28 am

Yes in 411/412 the rear hanger bar setup is much like in type 4 powered baywindow has.

I had a problem with oil pressure with 30mm pump and 1,5 quart extra oil sump under the engine.

I think there is not enough oil in the sump for that pump when car goes in long turns and high RPM´s. oil pressure light gave us warnings, when oil level got below upper mark. My next goal is to modify "vintage tray" to route the oil from the pushrod tubes straight into extra oil sump. That should increase the level of oil in the sump during the cornering. I think now it doesn´t happen, maybe because I dont have even original vintage tray installed.

I have an extra oil cooler and sandwich plate in original oilfilter adapter and it seems to work fine without modifications. Oil plugs have been replaced with threaded ones of course.

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:01 am

There's liter+ of oil in the 3/4 head at high RPM.
The stage and a half setup puts that back in the sump.

Just having a valved return under the windage tray would likely work too.

I'm sure you could work in a 914 crossbar, and if you did a custom mount, it could even be easier...

Actually using that pump as a dry sump pump would likely work too .

MattKab · Post by **MattKab** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:30 am

Pile, an idea I'd like to run by you, if you will? How about a small hydraulic pump, powered by a 30mm single stage oil pump, as a scavenge pump?

What mods to the pick-up and return, etc. are feasible? I want to avoid a small pulley (upright cool) and have more oil available all the time. Plus I'm using the Vanagon mount (Alu part). With a 30mm Schadek I only have 16mm clearence for the pump cover.

Matt

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:25 pm

I just bought a Weaver Bros. 2 stage pump w/bracket and pulley on ebay for $125... nice and compact, vbelt drive, should run off a T4 AC pulley just fine. (might need larger pulley on crank or smaller final, but that's a minor engineering problem)

It was WAY cheaper than any wimpy electric drive scavenge pump. would hook a Golf fan motor up to it for racing use...

An Accusump is always an option, and simpler.

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:48 pm

Bizzare but cheap thought, since you are handy and not above being devious...

A Vanagon WBX pulley is this big cast iron job that just happens to clear the CB pump if you DON'T have the Vanagon rear mount in.(on a T1)

The CB drysump pump CLEARS on a T4/upright converted, assuming no rear bar. (see Sandeeps motor)

I have NO doubt it could be modified for T4 use.
One would have to deal with even MORE alt pulley offset somehow, but I have faith it's doable.

(You said upright cooling, so I'm obviously thinking T4>bug, on a T1 it bolts on, given installing the seal too)

A kafer brace is likely a better plan anyway.

MattKab · Post by **MattKab** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:03 pm

I was thinking of a pump resembling a small turbo, but now I'm off the idea, nothing in my junk inventory and that 16mm gap are keeping me stock-ish.

Please could you give me the hieght of the CB pump from the 518 to the root of the fins and maximum at the fittings, so I can look at shimming/notching?

Is this the pump you are using?:

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=197

'Have the CSP 'brace and hanging the muffler (then turbo) off the T25 mount. Yes my '79 Bug with inline t/stat and fan/cooler only.

My oil light is an issue, I can hang 0.9g sideforce (LogWorks) with stock T1 engine early small pick-up tube and public roads. I have very similar plans for intended use as Jani and hope he will meet us at the Nurburgring sometime

I recall looking at the CB pump and was impressed, researching (probably on here) turned me off at the time, the price is dandy too. I don't recall the issue that put me off

I think it was Jake..

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:44 pm

No, I'm talking dry sump http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=189

AFAIK there's nothing wrong with the CB pumps, someone pointed out that they are the only ones that have keyed shafts at the moment.

The pump you linked to adds several small lines and 90 degree bends to the circuit that aren't required, it's for adding full flow filtering/cooling to an already built T1 engine w/o drilling and tapping...Which in reality is required on any rebuild just to clean the oil passages.

The CB drypump I listed also can benefit from some minor mods to the flow path.

I posted some pics in some thread awhile back...

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:17 pm

For pics, see http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=111275

func412 · Post by **func412** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:36 pm

MattKab wrote:I have very similar plans for intended use as Jani and hope he will meet us at the Nurburgring sometime

Yes, race race race!

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:12 pm

One thing that would work for a scavenge or supply pump and be very low drag is a power steering pump from a rabbiit or golf. Very small. They are sliding vane type. Open it up and remove every other vane...or more. This will greatly lower the pressure but not the volume. Also you can put a spring loaded ball check valve on the output to dump excess to the case.
The oil squirter system I am working on is external and does not bleed pressure from the mains. Ray