My bus will run with injection

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pierrox
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My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:18 pm

Hi everyone,
I'm new here, and this is my first post.
A couple of weeks ago, I drove a Subaru converted bus. And it was quite nice. But the thing that impressed me most was the engine management: the stock Subaru ECU had been replaced by a Megasquirt 2. And since there was a laptop connected to it, I got a full demo of the possibilities.

All of a sudden, my carburetors felt like very old technology... and very obsolete. I don't need or want a Subaru engine in my van, but an EFI sounds pretty good to me. And since I'm also conscious of my carbon footprint (I know, why drive a van then? Well because it's been in the family for 41 years?), I was rather impressed by the cleaner fuel burning side of this.

So it didn't take long to find this forum.

I read a lot here, on the MegaSquirt home page, on The Samba, and on a couple of French websites since that's where I live. Slowly I started to visualize what I'd like to do: find a Mexico injection and drive it with the MegaSquirt. I like the idea of its apparent simplicity, that it has VW logos all over it, and that I can use my big bulky air filter again - I converted to dual Weber iCT 34 carbs not long ago. Also, it seems like a rather cost effective solution, on top of being neat.

Having exchanged with someone here who's done it several years ago, his advice was to do it step by step. He told me "First get the MS2, even better solder it yourself to get familiar, then install it to drive the ignition with crank trigger, and when you'll be familiar with it, add the injection". Makes sense to me. Of course, part of me was already drooling at the DubShop kits, especially the Mexico based one. But $2700 is very steep at the moment.

So I'm starting by browsing the website "Le Bon Coin", our local Craigslist where I spotted one. And I'm also researching my trigger wheel option.
Actually, that will be my first question: I have a Berg Achiever on my 1699cc engine (the heavier pulley but not as heavy as the Equalizer one - and the engine has a 74mm crank with 85.5mm cylinders) and would love to keep this pulley. Also, I would like to hide the trigger wheel behind it. Is it possible with this pulley? I saw that Speedshop in the UK offers a very neat solution, has anyone done something similar with a Berg or other 3rd party forged pulley?

Thanks y'all

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Jadewombat
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Jadewombat » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:37 pm

Hi. Why do want to hide the trigger wheel?

Most any machine shop can drill the holes to mount the trigger wheel to your berg pulley and they shouldn't charge more than 1 hour of labor time.

pierrox
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:29 am

Thanks!
I like the idea of the non obtrusive wheel and when I saw the one offered by Speedshop, I was impressed. But yes, it's just driven by looks and it could be in front and work as well.

Talking about wheel, how do you adjust timing with a crank ignition?

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Jadewombat » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:33 pm

Since this is your first project with crank trigger ignition, I wouldn't recommend hiding the trigger wheel. If you have any problems at all, it will make it more difficult for you to figure out a solution with crank sensor hidden. You won't be able to see the exact position of the crank sensor.

There's only one setting for MS which it will ask you what is the position of the crank sensor relative to top dead center (TDC). The timing you will do by building a 3D map on your own. It's recommended you start with a map similar to the stock distributor, then gradually increase the spark advance as you get more comfortable with the system over time.

pierrox
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:15 am

Thanks for your feedback, it makes sense. I guess I want it 100% from the get-go, where in real life you've got to go thru steps before you succeed. I could start with my pulley and a trigger wheel in front of it, and then later move the trigger wheel behind it. As long as I get to keep the slightly heavier Berg pulley.

I found a MS2 v3.57 for sale second hand here, never installed still in the box. Price is not bad, but now I have a question about this model. I noticed that you usually have to buy it for your purpose: on the UK shop for instance, there is more than a dozen different version of it. Same with the french website: you pick the base model and then choose the type of ignition pick-up, power, barometer and so on. If I get a second hand v3.57, can I still adapt it so it matches what I need for my engine? Or is that only possible with the DIY v3.0?

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Chip Birks
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:37 pm

Mario at www.thedubshop.com can modify your pulley to fit one of his hidden trigger wheels. The ms2 v3.57 is a nice setup. Most of the custom features are already built in, they are just selected with jumpers on the circuit board. Those jumpers can be moved to fit your needs. There are a couple things that require additional components, such as idle valves, and additional ignition circuits, but otherwise its pretty easy to configure to fit your needs.
Last edited by Chip Birks on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

pierrox
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:22 pm

Chip Birks wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:37 pm
The ms2 v3.57 is a nice setup. Most of the custom features are already built in, they are just selected with jumpers on the circuit board. Those jumpers can be moved to fit your needs. There are a couple things that require additional components, such as idle valves, and additional ignition circuits, but otherwise its pretty easy to configure to fit your needs.
That's cool news, it means buying an unused second hand one wouldn't be a problem as it could probably be adapted to my engine. Thanks!
Does the trigger wheel need to be away from the pulley? On the Speedshop one, it looks like it's touching it. But then the pulley is made of aluminum (not sure if spelt correctly) and the trigger is steel, so I guess the pickup is magnetic and not light?

pierrox
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:00 pm

Update!

Received my Megasquirt earlier this week, pretty excited as it came with a Megastim so I can play with TunerStudio before it's in the van!

Since I'm going the Mexico Injection manifold route, what's my best option for idle control? Saw that Mario had Bosch PWM IAT at some stage, marked "sold out" now. Anyone has a ref I should look for? I'm in Europe, is that a part I can pull from a local car? Like a more recent VW?

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Chip Birks
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Chip Birks » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:27 pm

I pull two wire bosch idle controllers from late 80s-early 90's era vws whenever I need one. Worked perfectly with my mexican setup years ago.

pierrox
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:54 pm

Chip Birks wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:27 pm
I pull two wire bosch idle controllers from late 80s-early 90's era vws whenever I need one. Worked perfectly with my mexican setup years ago.
Ok that should be easy enough to find here. How did you install it on the manifold? I have yet to receive mine, so I don't know how exactly it looks.

More questions: a friend runs his MS with a Golf IV ignition coil, wasted spark. He has no idea how it was wired and if there were mods to the MS to do that - someone did it for him. Is it a classic setup?

And last one: I would like to do sequential injection, seems to make sense to be in full control of what is sent to which cylinder if I'm going to ditch the carburetors. Any good source of info for this out there?

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andy198712
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by andy198712 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:34 pm

search here and the extra forum....
thats where i find most of my stuff.

i started out with just doing ignition, and carb, then full EFI, less chance for error that way.

You can drill your steel pulley to make it into a trigger wheel (did you say it was steel or ally?)

for sequencal you need the crank trigger and also a setup to read the cam location, you'll see Mario @ the dub shop makes one that replaces the dizzy...

but thats down the road i bit, i would focus on getting the ignition setup first and get a feel for it from there.

Have you downloaded TunerStudio yet? thats the software you'll want to use to setup/adjust/tune the MS

Hope some of that helps :)

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Chip Birks
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Chip Birks » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:49 pm

pierrox wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:54 pm
Chip Birks wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:27 pm
I pull two wire bosch idle controllers from late 80s-early 90's era vws whenever I need one. Worked perfectly with my mexican setup years ago.
Ok that should be easy enough to find here. How did you install it on the manifold? I have yet to receive mine, so I don't know how exactly it looks.

More questions: a friend runs his MS with a Golf IV ignition coil, wasted spark. He has no idea how it was wired and if there were mods to the MS to do that - someone did it for him. Is it a classic setup?

And last one: I would like to do sequential injection, seems to make sense to be in full control of what is sent to which cylinder if I'm going to ditch the carburetors. Any good source of info for this out there?
What MS did you order? Were you planning on sequential when you purchased it. MS1 and MS2 are probably not the best bet if planning on sequential. Also, how do you plan to tune for the sequential? Wideband or egt per cylinder? Or both? Head temp per cylinder? Wasted spark and sequential fuel is an odd choice, having full control over only half of the equation. I'd say just do a standard ms2 style build. Wasted spark, and alternating fuel will do just fine. Late vw coils are a nice option. The mexican efi stuff has a large hole in the plenum made for the idle valve. It'll be pretty obvious when you see it.

pierrox
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:14 pm

andy198712 wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:34 pm
i started out with just doing ignition, and carb, then full EFI, less chance for error that way.
Thanks!
Yes that's my plan too. First the ignition, then later on the injection. And it seems simple to start the way the MS is intended : fire the injectors in banks (cylinder 1/2 and 3/4?) then add the sequential since it seems to require mods to the MS itself. And a cam sensor - Mario makes one, and there's also one made by CB Performance.

I have a trigger wheel and VR in the post from Mario. I was thinking about installing those whilst keeping my current ignition so I can adjust the MS data (crank angle, etc) before I switch to to the new coil.

I installed Tuner Studio, got a USB-serial cable, updated the MS to the latest firmware and added the MS-Extra to it. Played a bit with the box since it came with an early MegaStim. It's a pretty neat system, I'm really impressed with it!

Chip Birks wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:49 pm
What MS did you order? Were you planning on sequential when you purchased it. MS1 and MS2 are probably not the best bet if planning on sequential. Also, how do you plan to tune for the sequential? Wideband or egt per cylinder? Or both? Head temp per cylinder? Wasted spark and sequential fuel is an odd choice, having full control over only half of the equation. I'd say just do a standard ms2 style build. Wasted spark, and alternating fuel will do just fine. Late vw coils are a nice option. The mexican efi stuff has a large hole in the plenum made for the idle valve. It'll be pretty obvious when you see it.
I found a second hand MS2-v3.57, never installed as the guy was given a fancy $1500 ECU before doing his injection conversion. It came with the MegaStim and the unused wiring harness.
Didn't realize it would be that complex to go for sequential injection. It made so much sense that each injector only works when needed that I thought it was the case for all fuel injections. Clearly not. Of course I would also do sequential ignition too, no point doing a hybrid. But if it's such a daunting task, more than I thought, I'll probably stick to the simpler version. The improvement over a carburetor being already night and day...

The "real" VW Bosch distributors were made in such a way that cylinder 3 had slightly less advance since it's the one that tends to overheat (like 2° at max advance), is it something that could be done with a MS? Or the wasted spark just means you fire both cylinders alternatively regardless of the one that actually needs a spark?

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:21 pm

Actually there is a simple way to go full sequential with ~zero mods to the mainboard...
It involves an MS3X and an adapter board fot the MS2 daughtercard to sit on, all the mods/configuration are set on the adapter.

Then for another $200 it can become a full on MS3/3X in a matter of seconds.
(I switched mine back and forth while testing, same harness)

It was suggested by one of the devs and folks ran with it.
Heres the whole thread...
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... ilit=MS2xt
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Chip Birks
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Chip Birks » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:56 pm

One thing to remember about sequential and OEMs, most tunes are developed in a lab, on dynos, with a million sensors and millions of $$$, then once its proven in every concievable circumstance, its mass produced and no longer needs the sensor army the test subject had. We aren't so lucky. I have no dyno, no lab, just the sensors. There is no real science to the design and implementaion of the intake and exhaust I use, its more of a "squeeze it all in" mentality than anything. So I use the data to tune the sequential element. Probably not super needed in a typical VW install. Mine isn't exactly run of the mill, so the more data I can get, the better.

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