MS type 4 in type 3

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David, Lule
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MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:44 pm

Hi.
I have an 1600 TL -67 with a Type 4 engine originally 1.8 l but matched with the internals of a 2l. A 278 degree cam from CB, light ported 1,8 S heads with 42x37 valves. I run a cr of 8,4:1 and the exhaust is a type 4 header conected to the stock heatexchangers and a short 2" muffler.

Thats the base. I have run the engine aprox 8000km with the stock solex 36-40 dual carbs. But I wasn't really satisfied with them and the VW 412 of with I had borrowed them from was up for sale... Time for something more electronic. MS!

The hardware is stock FI intake runners, injectors and throttlebody. I have the bosch TPS, IAT and CLT from volvo 850, a narowband lambda in the header. The CLT is in the head inside the rockergallery along the cyl no 3.

The MS is a MS1 v.3 I tune it with Megatune.

I started the conversion in 2012. Bought a house, restored it, got a kid, more house restoring and another kid. It have taken its time. But now it is ready for fire.

Thats the background.

It starts easy and run a little fat. I have to get it to normal operating temp to tune the idle. But in about 50 deg Celcius it runs enough smooth to trie let of the accelerator and drop it to idle. Then it dies. And when I am about to start up again there is no spark. When I drop the igition key and turn of the starter it might poff a single fire. in 10-15 tries the single fire can make it start up. But then it runs like crap and dies pretty imediate.

If I wait for it to cool down completly (the day after) it starts easy and runs to approx 50 degree again and the problem repeats. I have switched three diffrent coils and still the same problem.

Does anyone have some ideas for me to trie. I havn't any more. :(

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by Chip Birks » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:32 pm

Unhook the coolant sensors. See what it does. Also, to do any effective tuning, you need to come up with a wideband afr sensor. Narrowband will literally tell you when your engine is running at 14.7:1 afr. I never ever target that specific point on my afr table. Are you using msextra code or just the standard B&G garbage? What do you have for ignition?

Delete megatune from your computer. Get Tunerstudio. MT hasn't been supported for probably 6 years. Tunerstudio is actively being worked on and updated.

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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:52 am

I know about the wideband kontra narrowband lambda issue. But at first I just want to get the car idle and be driveable in to the garage again. At the time I have turned of all lambda readings.

The ignition is a std coil and distributor controlled by the MS. The MS is trigged by the points. (yes I know it was a bad idea. But it seemed most easy at the time when I built it together. I am going to change it to a WBX-dist with sensor.)

I have the MS extra code. The tunerstudio was the software that the builder of the MS-box sent me with the MS. I will have a look att Tunerstudio.


I will unhook the coolant sensor and give it a try.

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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:33 pm

I have made an effort to make it run again.

I tried to unhook and read the temperature without CLT. It went to -40 C with the sensor connected it read 13 C wich seemed correct.

Before I started i replaced the broken Type 4 thermostat with an type 1 dito. This because the engine took so long time to get warm whitout the thermostat function in the cooling system.

An other issue that have bothered me is the triggering points. My friend had an new pointless ignition kit that I borrowed and installed in the distributor. So now I don´t run points any more.

The engine started at once but ran fat. A lot of fuel. Bad exhaust smell and misfire. The ignition seemed ok. But the fuel was too much.

I tried to decrease the fuel. All coldstartenrichments off. And lowered the req fuel. at 6 it still was way too much. It seems that none of the actions made any response to the engine.

At approx 50 C I tuned the engine off. The ignition issue I previously had was gone. The engine had spark and restarted fairly quick.


My worries now is the exceeded fuelinjectionlevel. After this session the oil had so much petrol in it that I have to change it.

Could it be my VW original injectors that has to much pressure. I run witn 3 Bar fuel pressure

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Was it running with the temp sensors unhooked? Dont change required fuel when trying to tune, adjust the ve table. If your numbers on the ve table get too low, then adjust required fuel lower, this will gain you back some resolution on the ve table. Tuning will all be guesswork until you get a wideband. Standalone EFI is only a guess without a real o2 sensor.

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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by Piledriver » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:25 pm

I have a 1.8L T4 in my 73 squareback, daily driver, ~80 miles a day, going on 6 years now?
Running right it may be the perfect car.

Recently swapped an automatic, she also has better brakes/wheels/tires/suspension for a pending motor upgrade.
Its running MS3+MS3X on a v2.2 mainboard.
(I also built a spare MS2+MS3X setup that plugs into the MS3 harness//direct swap)

The factory injectors are 40 years old first gen units and highly suspect even if it runs, the volume and spray pattern are likely horked up at best.
You will probably never get great results with those.

Understand tweaking reqfuel is a giant knob that only gets you running, it's OK to use it like that as long as the resulting # doesn't become gospel.
djet ran at 28psi, and its very likely one or more of those stock injectors is effectively stuck on @42 PSI.
You will never be able to tune it like that.

It is also very difficult to get a decent tune with a NB sensor, it CAN actually be used to create a valid VE table but you have to do a lot of work to get it working to begin with, whereas the paid version of Tunertudios autotune with a wideband sensor can deliver a drivable NA tune in a few minutes (just the fuel) assuming the motor is not too wild.
(TS WILL create a valid ve table with a NB sensor if your targets are all 14.7:1)

A djet regulator should get the stock injectors in a usable pressure range if they are good to begin with.
(and it can be adjusted to ~42 PSI later)

Its relatively easy to use modern injectors on the stock manifolds, I use pico injectors off a motorcycle and the fuel rail bolts to the original mount studs.
Many modern injectors will even fit the factory mounts, although they usually lack the hose barb setup.

I even used the factory injector clamps on CIS injectors at one point, with slightly modded valve spring retainers as the adapter.

I most strongly suggest you upgrade your ECU at least to MS1extra firmware, the featureless B&G code has been dead a long time, and AFAIK no one here at least runs it, or can help you with it other than making general suggestions.

A missing tooth trigger wheel setup either on the crank or in the distributor, and going to LS2 coils or a VW 4 tower coil will be far more accurate, powerful, and most importantly far more reliable than any single coil distributor based setup.
(That's a major reason why ~all modern cars use that sort of setup)
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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:40 pm

I have the extra code.

The fuel pump is a aftermarket original sparepart to an Alfa romeo. With the adjustable fuelpressure regulator from the D-jet I have not got the pressure lower than 3 Bar.

I realise that the oem injectors is really out of date. I have talked to a friend that do a lot of tuning to newer cars. He had some sparepart cars, Saab, Volvo and BMWs and he is going to get me a set of injectors from one of them. He know my engine spec and I let him choose the injectors. He Will also test them to make sure that they are ok before I get them.

A piece o4 400mm fuelrail in aluminium is ordered and now I leave the old Low resistans injectors in the scrap heap and take a jump to 30 year more modern stuff.

I can borrow his WB sensor and have it when I tune the car. I think you have right about it the NB wont do any good for me.

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Piledriver
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by Piledriver » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:37 pm

D-jet spec pressure was 28 PSI, ~<2 BAR.
I'm running a Bosch 044 with a djet regulator and I can turn it down to ~26 PSI.
Perhaps you have a restriction on the return leg?

I had a kinked return line one time that provided an excellent line/fitting pressure test at >160PSI.
The amazing thing was it still ran. (running CIS back then in the 914)
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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:07 pm

When I did the adjustments, that thought occured to me. I have 13mm line from tank to pump approx 30cm. Then 8mm to the injectors. After the regulator I reused the original fuelline back to the tank. 6mm. When the preasure stayed at 3 bar. I took the return line off the regulator and let it pour in to a bottle. Still 3 bar. :?

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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by Piledriver » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 pm

...and the adjuster screw is all the way out?
I'm running the std 7mm FI steel line in the tunnel with an absolutely huge pump... it manages.
I'd usually suspect the regulator, but try dumping return to the bucket at the regulator instead as a test.
Its possible you have a restriction/kink of some sort in the factory line in the tunnel.
I realize you have the std carb line in the tunnel, I personally would (EDIT) NOT have used that for the high pressure feed, but many folks have used it for return.

CIS lines were usually 6mm (feed) but IIRC 7-8mm return. (maybe some as large as 10mm, has been awhile)
The 044 was/is a CIS pump, std equipment on many cars.(930 was one)
Last edited by Piledriver on Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:47 am

Off Topic
took the return line off the regulator and let it pour in to a bottle. Still 3 bar. :?
I tried the bucket/bottle direct after the regulator. The screw is out completly, when you turn it you can feel that it leavs the spring-tension and get "loose" at that state it still is 3 bar.

The pump I got is a "pirate" part an and it is is specified as a sparepart for
ALFA ROMEO: 75
CITROËN: CX
FIAT: UNO
PORSCHE: 911, 924, 944, 968
RENAULT: 21, 25, ESPACE
SAAB: 900, 9000
VOLVO: 340-360, 740, 760, 940
ALPINE: V6

http://www.biltema.se/sv/Bil---MC/Bilre ... 000026625/

In a beetle -66 I had a CIS from a 77 scirocco GTI In that car I had 8mm preasurline from an Audi 80 GTE CIS pump to the K-jet fueldistributor. Then the original in tunnel fuelline as return. Later I have modified the system with Audi-pump 8mm to a T section, one part to a D-jet regulator and return to tank in std fuelline. the other T goes to a Filterking regulator before it enters the dual 45DRLAs. Neither of the setups have suffered from poor returnflow despite the use of the original 6mm in tunnel fuelline.

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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:59 pm

Look what I got today :)

Image

400mm of aluminium fuelrail :D

From the guy I bought the fuelrail and clips, I also got 5 pieces of Volvo V70 injectors. It is Siemens Deka 1389563. The flow I have found on them is 296cc at 2.98 bar.

Image

Now they are sent for flowtesting and cleaning.

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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by Clonebug » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:07 pm

David, Lule wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:47 am
Off Topic
took the return line off the regulator and let it pour in to a bottle. Still 3 bar. :?
I tried the bucket/bottle direct after the regulator. The screw is out completly, when you turn it you can feel that it leavs the spring-tension and get "loose" at that state it still is 3 bar.

The pump I got is a "pirate" part an and it is is specified as a sparepart for
ALFA ROMEO: 75
CITROËN: CX
FIAT: UNO
PORSCHE: 911, 924, 944, 968
RENAULT: 21, 25, ESPACE
SAAB: 900, 9000
VOLVO: 340-360, 740, 760, 940
ALPINE: V6

http://www.biltema.se/sv/Bil---MC/Bilre ... 000026625/

In a beetle -66 I had a CIS from a 77 scirocco GTI In that car I had 8mm preasurline from an Audi 80 GTE CIS pump to the K-jet fueldistributor. Then the original in tunnel fuelline as return. Later I have modified the system with Audi-pump 8mm to a T section, one part to a D-jet regulator and return to tank in std fuelline. the other T goes to a Filterking regulator before it enters the dual 45DRLAs. Neither of the setups have suffered from poor returnflow despite the use of the original 6mm in tunnel fuelline.
I use that same pump.....I grabbed it used from a 94 Volvo 940 turbo Wagon. It has a13 mm inlet and a 1/4 inch outlet.
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David, Lule
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Re: MS type 4 in type 3

Post by David, Lule » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:39 am

I have collected some parts, but now I think everything I vill need is at home. :D

I have been worrying about the siemens incectors since every source of injector flows have had different flov numbers. My sollution came from the guy who was going to test them for me. The blue injectors wasn't any god in the testing but he had 4 of SAAB 9-5 injectors named Bosch 0 280 156 023 with a flow of 347cc/min at 3 bar and 16 ohm

I think that will do for the enginespecs of mine and a little to grow on. :D

Image

The injectors are with a smaller body than the blue siemens I got earlier. I thing the model is called EVO6 with 4 injectionholes/injector.

Image


Some other stuff i have got is An6 conections for fuel, Jetronic injector conectord, Not pictured is a fuelpressure gauge that I will mount on one of the fuelrails.

Image

Now I just have to find the car under all the snow and start working on it.

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